Comments on: William Lane Craig, Raymond Bradley and the Problem of Hell. Part Two. http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two Philosophy of Religion, Ethics, Theology and Jurisprudence Thu, 09 Feb 2012 09:03:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Annihilation | Conditional Immortality Blog http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-88575 Annihilation | Conditional Immortality Blog Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:41:03 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-88575 [...] The issue of annihilation is important for Christians to consider. One reason is how we are able to give the reasons for the hope we have: We have a God who is just and will destroy all evil not torture evil doers for ever. [...] [...] The issue of annihilation is important for Christians to consider. One reason is how we are able to give the reasons for the hope we have: We have a God who is just and will destroy all evil not torture evil doers for ever. [...]

]]> By: Jeremy http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-69481 Jeremy Wed, 21 Jul 2010 01:49:38 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-69481 Sorry Matt but I have to disagree, all have eternal existence, some get to spend eternity with God some without. Spending eternity without God is Hell and is a case of God respecting our choice to live without Him. I do believe that God is unlikely to be a divine bully tormenting people forever. The best explanation I have met comes from easten orthodox theology--in eternity those in Heaven experience God [his love, grace, mercy etc] as bliss while those who have rejected Him experience God [his Perfection, Holiness, Justice] as torment. An analogy might be found in the way that people sometimes cannot recieve love from someone they believe they have hurt too much.Our own guilt and regret provide the torment. To Deborah, universalism directly contradicts the Just and Holy aspects of God's character , renders Christ's death redundant and would also mean that God was ultimately denying the choice of those who chose to live with out Him. Also the idea of prolonged torment to burn away sinfullness would still leave us spiritually dead ie not made alive in Christ. We would still not meet the fundamental requirement for entering God's presence which is Holiness/Perfection. These are only to be found in Christ,. Not in works which is what extended torment would amount to, ie endure some pain to pay for our sins and entrance heaven. Kind Regards Jeremy Sorry Matt but I have to disagree, all have eternal existence, some get to spend eternity with God some without. Spending eternity without God is Hell and is a case of God respecting our choice to live without Him. I do believe that God is unlikely to be a divine bully tormenting people forever. The best explanation I have met comes from easten orthodox theology–in eternity those in Heaven experience God [his love, grace, mercy etc] as bliss while those who have rejected Him experience God [his Perfection, Holiness, Justice] as torment. An analogy might be found in the way that people sometimes cannot recieve love from someone they believe they have hurt too much.Our own guilt and regret provide the torment.
To Deborah, universalism directly contradicts the Just and Holy aspects of God’s character , renders Christ’s death redundant and would also mean that God was ultimately denying the choice of those who chose to live with out Him.
Also the idea of prolonged torment to burn away sinfullness would still leave us spiritually dead ie not made alive in Christ. We would still not meet the fundamental requirement for entering God’s presence which is Holiness/Perfection. These are only to be found in Christ,. Not in works which is what extended torment would amount to, ie endure some pain to pay for our sins and entrance heaven.
Kind Regards
Jeremy

]]> By: Deborah Kean http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-69254 Deborah Kean Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:09:14 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-69254 I first came across an interesting argument about this by William Barclay, in which he says that the fire in question is redemptive and purifying. He maintains that 'hell' has a purgatorial function! Now as I was then a firm fundamentalist, I had no concept of purgatory... I have since then become convinced by arguments for universalism, which I realise may be a step too far for you, but I think those arguments are worthy of investigation! http://www.tentmaker.org/biographies/barclay.htm http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/barclay1.html I have taken the liberty of providing some links to Barclay's essay which was my introduction to the subject. Deb I first came across an interesting argument about this by William Barclay, in which he says that the fire in question is redemptive and purifying. He maintains that ‘hell’ has a purgatorial function! Now as I was then a firm fundamentalist, I had no concept of purgatory…
I have since then become convinced by arguments for universalism, which I realise may be a step too far for you, but I think those arguments are worthy of investigation!
http://www.tentmaker.org/biographies/barclay.htm
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/barclay1.html
I have taken the liberty of providing some links to Barclay’s essay which was my introduction to the subject.
Deb

]]> By: Matt http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-64845 Matt Wed, 07 Jul 2010 02:51:55 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-64845 Rob, I agree that Hell is eternal, its eternal destruction. The passages Scott cites actually agree on me here. Matt 25;46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." This does not say that ( as Scott suggests) that the wicked have everlasting existence. Its says the <i>punishment</i> is everlasting and the punishment the wicked suffer is <i>contrasted</i> with everlasting life which is attributed to the righteous. The passage also says nothing about "torture" and nothing about being punished for the wrong beliefs. John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." Again there is nothing here about eternal torture. It simply states that those who do evil will be condemned. The condemnation they receive is <i>contrasted</i> with everlasting life which those who do good receive. Again also the issue is what they have done not what they believe. Dan 12: 2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." This again says nothing about the eternal existence of the wicked, its states they contempt they will be held in is eternal, and again, it is <i>contrasted</i> with living forever. It says some will live forever <i>others</i> will not they will be held in contempt forever. There is also nothing in this passage about people being tortured for their beliefs. Rob,

I agree that Hell is eternal, its eternal destruction.

The passages Scott cites actually agree on me here.

Matt 25;46: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

This does not say that ( as Scott suggests) that the wicked have everlasting existence. Its says the punishment is everlasting and the punishment the wicked suffer is contrasted with everlasting life which is attributed to the righteous.

The passage also says nothing about “torture” and nothing about being punished for the wrong beliefs.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”

Again there is nothing here about eternal torture. It simply states that those who do evil will be condemned. The condemnation they receive is contrasted with everlasting life which those who do good receive.

Again also the issue is what they have done not what they believe.

Dan 12: 2 “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”

This again says nothing about the eternal existence of the wicked, its states they contempt they will be held in is eternal, and again, it is contrasted with living forever. It says some will live forever others will not they will be held in contempt forever.

There is also nothing in this passage about people being tortured for their beliefs.

]]> By: Rob http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-64837 Rob Wed, 07 Jul 2010 02:10:02 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-64837 From the verses Scott cites, hell certainly seems to be eternal... From the verses Scott cites, hell certainly seems to be eternal…

]]> By: Scott http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-259 Scott Sat, 16 Aug 2008 06:18:00 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-259 I'm surprised you didn't deal with Matt 25:46, or John 5:28-29 c.f. Daniel 12:2. These seem to be more compelling evidence for the lasting existence of the wicked than any of the other texts you mention. I’m surprised you didn’t deal with Matt 25:46, or John 5:28-29 c.f. Daniel 12:2. These seem to be more compelling evidence for the lasting existence of the wicked than any of the other texts you mention.

]]> By: scrubone http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-227 scrubone Mon, 07 Jul 2008 09:47:00 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-227 "The bible teaches that God will torture people endlessly for their beliefs."<br/><br/>Gee, here's me thinking that the Christian message was all about pointing out the danger - and the way out.<br/><br/>I guess it's all in the spin, isn't it? “The bible teaches that God will torture people endlessly for their beliefs.”

Gee, here’s me thinking that the Christian message was all about pointing out the danger – and the way out.

I guess it’s all in the spin, isn’t it?

]]> By: fruitfulfaith http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-224 fruitfulfaith Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:47:00 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-224 Good to see you two at the C.S. Lewis seminar today (well presented paper, Matt)! Cheers,<br/>-d- Good to see you two at the C.S. Lewis seminar today (well presented paper, Matt)! Cheers,
-d-

]]> By: Lucyna Maria http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-223 Lucyna Maria Sat, 28 Jun 2008 05:09:00 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-223 Matt, thanks. So your definition of Hell is therefore different from mine, which is what I thought from reading the post. Which I must admit I've only skimmed as opposed to read in detail.<br/><br/>I actually agree that God is not the torturer, but I honestly don't really know what will happen at the end of time to all those souls and angels in Hell.<br/><br/>So, all I'd say to the atheist who believes that God is the one who tortures - a soul in a state of sin cannot be in the presence of God, therefore Hell exists by God's mercy for those souls who can never hope and would never choose to be in His presence. There is no other possible alternative for them. Matt, thanks. So your definition of Hell is therefore different from mine, which is what I thought from reading the post. Which I must admit I’ve only skimmed as opposed to read in detail.

I actually agree that God is not the torturer, but I honestly don’t really know what will happen at the end of time to all those souls and angels in Hell.

So, all I’d say to the atheist who believes that God is the one who tortures – a soul in a state of sin cannot be in the presence of God, therefore Hell exists by God’s mercy for those souls who can never hope and would never choose to be in His presence. There is no other possible alternative for them.

]]> By: MandM http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html#comment-222 MandM Fri, 27 Jun 2008 02:19:00 +0000 http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two/#comment-222 I believe in Hell. However, as I outlined, I do not believe that Hell is a place where God tortures people forever. I don't think that this position is justified by the Scriptures that both Catholic and Protestant accept as Apostolic tradition.<br/><br/>I believe that there will be a judgement of all people. This judgement will be final, irreversable and eternal.<br/><br/>Hell is the Biblical term used to designate eternal destruction. Eternal destruction means destroyed. When something is destroyed it remains destroyed forever. Destruction is eternal.<br/><br/>Matt I believe in Hell. However, as I outlined, I do not believe that Hell is a place where God tortures people forever. I don’t think that this position is justified by the Scriptures that both Catholic and Protestant accept as Apostolic tradition.

I believe that there will be a judgement of all people. This judgement will be final, irreversable and eternal.

Hell is the Biblical term used to designate eternal destruction. Eternal destruction means destroyed. When something is destroyed it remains destroyed forever. Destruction is eternal.

Matt

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