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	<title>Comments on: The Foreshore and Seabed Repeal: The Inconvenience of Due Process</title>
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	<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2</link>
	<description>Philosophy of Religion, Ethics, Theology and Jurisprudence</description>
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		<title>By: Madeleine</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3659</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 00:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3659</guid>
		<description>Those are very weighty questions indeed and there are various theories and answers to them in the literature and the answers vary depending on which culture or area of land you ask.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Generally speaking in broad terms that cross most theories ownership of new or previously undiscovered land arose from occupation. As a state or authority came into charge then frequently that authority assumed ownership and everyone else then obtained their slice from them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for what happened between discovery of unoccupied land and feudal ownership you are probably about right. Certainly in Maori Land Law, &lt;i&gt;Take&lt;/i&gt; (claims or titles) to land are usually listed as being obtained by:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;whenua raupatu&lt;/i&gt; - claim by conquest&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;take tupuna&lt;/i&gt; - claim by ancestry&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;taunaha whenua&lt;/i&gt; - claim by discovery&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;takahi whenua&lt;/i&gt; - claim by travelling over land regularly&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;take tuku&lt;/i&gt; - gifted land&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But even then, Maori concept of title was not like ours. In addition to their concept of ownership not looking much our concept of exclusive ownership and enjoyment limited only by &lt;span&gt;t&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span&gt;axation&lt;/span&gt;, eminent domain, police power, escheat or whatever encumbrances or conditions might be registered against the title, in Maori law you could lose your title if you did not maintain &lt;i&gt;ahi kaa&lt;/i&gt;, if you failed to &quot;keep your home fires burning.&quot; If you left the land for a long time or you stopped using your path over someone else&#039;s land to go to your fishing ground or you stopped planting your crops in a particular area then your claim ended because you were no longer in relationship or connected to the land.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In Maori times there was no state so things like jurisdiction and immigration were set by each tribe. Most cultures had some methods of dealing with or determining these things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Obviously jurisdiction and state control of land in our context arose from conquest of England and then conquest of New Zealand. Those making the conquests got to set them once they had subdued the population and gained control - there is a heap of literature on how and when a state gains legitimacy - Kelsen&#039;s &quot;Grundnorm&quot;, HLA Hart&#039;s &quot;Rule of Recognition&quot; are two theories that spring to mind as starting points if you want to read further.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those are very weighty questions indeed and there are various theories and answers to them in the literature and the answers vary depending on which culture or area of land you ask.</p>
<p>Generally speaking in broad terms that cross most theories ownership of new or previously undiscovered land arose from occupation. As a state or authority came into charge then frequently that authority assumed ownership and everyone else then obtained their slice from them.</p>
<p>As for what happened between discovery of unoccupied land and feudal ownership you are probably about right. Certainly in Maori Land Law, <i>Take</i> (claims or titles) to land are usually listed as being obtained by:</p>
<p><i>whenua raupatu</i> &#8211; claim by conquest<br /><i>take tupuna</i> &#8211; claim by ancestry<br /><i>taunaha whenua</i> &#8211; claim by discovery<br /><i>takahi whenua</i> &#8211; claim by travelling over land regularly<br /><i>take tuku</i> &#8211; gifted land</p>
<p>But even then, Maori concept of title was not like ours. In addition to their concept of ownership not looking much our concept of exclusive ownership and enjoyment limited only by &lt;span&gt;t&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span&gt;axation&lt;/span&gt;, eminent domain, police power, escheat or whatever encumbrances or conditions might be registered against the title, in Maori law you could lose your title if you did not maintain <i>ahi kaa</i>, if you failed to &quot;keep your home fires burning.&quot; If you left the land for a long time or you stopped using your path over someone else&#39;s land to go to your fishing ground or you stopped planting your crops in a particular area then your claim ended because you were no longer in relationship or connected to the land.</p>
<p>In Maori times there was no state so things like jurisdiction and immigration were set by each tribe. Most cultures had some methods of dealing with or determining these things.</p>
<p>Obviously jurisdiction and state control of land in our context arose from conquest of England and then conquest of New Zealand. Those making the conquests got to set them once they had subdued the population and gained control &#8211; there is a heap of literature on how and when a state gains legitimacy &#8211; Kelsen&#39;s &quot;Grundnorm&quot;, HLA Hart&#39;s &quot;Rule of Recognition&quot; are two theories that spring to mind as starting points if you want to read further.</p>
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		<title>By: Sid</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3647</link>
		<dc:creator>Sid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 07:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3647</guid>
		<description>I skip read this post because suddenly I have this question that I&#039;ve had for a while but never really found answer to.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What is the basis of ownership of land? Did we all kill each other in wars centuries ago, then &#039;owned&#039; lands from those days, and then slowly people just stop killing each other and instead buy and sell?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Or some group found empty lands and from there on the group own the land?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What is the basis for jurisdiction, immigration law, land ownership ... ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I skip read this post because suddenly I have this question that I&#39;ve had for a while but never really found answer to.</p>
<p>What is the basis of ownership of land? Did we all kill each other in wars centuries ago, then &#39;owned&#39; lands from those days, and then slowly people just stop killing each other and instead buy and sell?</p>
<p>Or some group found empty lands and from there on the group own the land?</p>
<p>What is the basis for jurisdiction, immigration law, land ownership &#8230; ?</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3187</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3187</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t turn it into a rce issue Matt.  The point I made above was tht NO-ONE should be able to own beaches/mountains/rivers/seas....so of course it is the same as two pakehas having a dispute...but I think nopakeha should be able to stop people walking over the surfaceof God&#039;s Creation either.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And why be SO OBSESSED with taking things to their logical conclusion.  I may believe something about owning mountains and the air - but not believe the same about owning a toothbrush say.Its not so black and white -all or nothing as you think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#39;t turn it into a rce issue Matt.  The point I made above was tht NO-ONE should be able to own beaches/mountains/rivers/seas&#8230;.so of course it is the same as two pakehas having a dispute&#8230;but I think nopakeha should be able to stop people walking over the surfaceof God&#39;s Creation either.</p>
<p>And why be SO OBSESSED with taking things to their logical conclusion.  I may believe something about owning mountains and the air &#8211; but not believe the same about owning a toothbrush say.Its not so black and white -all or nothing as you think.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3184</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 05:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3184</guid>
		<description>Guest,  You write &lt;em&gt;I guess it depends on whether you think that humans can &quot;own&quot; things like beaches/mountains/rivers etc.  &lt;br /&gt; &lt;br /&gt;I personally think this is a ridiculous concept - that because of the luck of one&#039;s birth they and not someone else has the &quot;right&quot; to walk where their feet carry them - whereas other are &quot;trespassing&quot; &lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;This proves to much: owning a house or car depends on luck of ones birth as well. I could have been born in a tribal village with no houses or cars. So if we follow your reasoning through, any one who wants to use your shower, drive your car or occupy your house can just walk in, presumably the government can simply take it give it whoever they like ( leaving you homeless) and you should not be allowed to go to court. That is what I find absurd.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;The ironic thing is that the English have fought long and hard for centuries to try to get access to land &quot;owned&quot; by the landed gentry, and yet in New Zealand we are creating another group of exclusive land owners. &lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;All privately owned land is &quot;exclusively owned&quot; thats part of what privately owned means. Simply allowing Maori to argue that a piece of land is theirs is no more problematic than allowing two pakehas who have a boundary disagreement to argue in court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guest,  You write <em>I guess it depends on whether you think that humans can &quot;own&quot; things like beaches/mountains/rivers etc.  <br /> <br />I personally think this is a ridiculous concept &#8211; that because of the luck of one&#39;s birth they and not someone else has the &quot;right&quot; to walk where their feet carry them &#8211; whereas other are &quot;trespassing&quot; </em><br /><em></em><br />This proves to much: owning a house or car depends on luck of ones birth as well. I could have been born in a tribal village with no houses or cars. So if we follow your reasoning through, any one who wants to use your shower, drive your car or occupy your house can just walk in, presumably the government can simply take it give it whoever they like ( leaving you homeless) and you should not be allowed to go to court. That is what I find absurd.</p>
<p><em>The ironic thing is that the English have fought long and hard for centuries to try to get access to land &quot;owned&quot; by the landed gentry, and yet in New Zealand we are creating another group of exclusive land owners. </em><br /><em></em><br />All privately owned land is &quot;exclusively owned&quot; thats part of what privately owned means. Simply allowing Maori to argue that a piece of land is theirs is no more problematic than allowing two pakehas who have a boundary disagreement to argue in court.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3090</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 04:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3090</guid>
		<description>I guess it depends on whether you think that humans can &quot;own&quot; things like beaches/mountains/rivers etc. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I personally think this is a ridiculous concept - that because of the luck of one&#039;s birth they and not someone else has the &quot;right&quot; to walk where their feet carry them - whereas other are &quot;trespassing&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So yes - legally you are right... but morally wrong.  The ironic thing is that the English have fought long and hard for centuries to try to get access to land &quot;owned&quot; by the landed gentry, and yet in New Zealand we are creating another group of exclusive land owners.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And if you think that the average bro&#039; is going to get anything out of it you are deluded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it depends on whether you think that humans can &quot;own&quot; things like beaches/mountains/rivers etc. </p>
<p>I personally think this is a ridiculous concept &#8211; that because of the luck of one&#39;s birth they and not someone else has the &quot;right&quot; to walk where their feet carry them &#8211; whereas other are &quot;trespassing&quot;</p>
<p>So yes &#8211; legally you are right&#8230; but morally wrong.  The ironic thing is that the English have fought long and hard for centuries to try to get access to land &quot;owned&quot; by the landed gentry, and yet in New Zealand we are creating another group of exclusive land owners.</p>
<p>And if you think that the average bro&#39; is going to get anything out of it you are deluded.</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3086</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3086</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that, I don&#039;t know what I was thinking writing &quot;Governor General!&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Recent blog post: Fisking Margaret Mayman: The Flawed Moral Theology on the Smacking Referendum</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that, I don&#39;t know what I was thinking writing &quot;Governor General!&quot;</p>
<p>Recent blog post: Fisking Margaret Mayman: The Flawed Moral Theology on the Smacking Referendum</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3085</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3085</guid>
		<description>I disagree, it is wrong to steal, it is wrong to deny somone&#039;s civil liberties, no matter how much you like the thing in question; it is wrong both morally and legally. The moral wrong is prior, as it would be morally wrong to steal, to deny human rights, even if it were legal to do these things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Recent blog post: Live Blogging from the Mount</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree, it is wrong to steal, it is wrong to deny somone&#39;s civil liberties, no matter how much you like the thing in question; it is wrong both morally and legally. The moral wrong is prior, as it would be morally wrong to steal, to deny human rights, even if it were legal to do these things.</p>
<p>Recent blog post: Live Blogging from the Mount</p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3084</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3084</guid>
		<description>Good post, but I think you meant Margaret Wilson was Attorney-General in 2004 - she was AG from 1999-2005, then Speaker 2005-2008, when she retired form Parliament and returned to Waikato Law school:&lt;br /&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wilson</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, but I think you meant Margaret Wilson was Attorney-General in 2004 &#8211; she was AG from 1999-2005, then Speaker 2005-2008, when she retired form Parliament and returned to Waikato Law school:<br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wilson" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wilson</a></p>
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		<title>By: bethyada</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3060</link>
		<dc:creator>bethyada</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 07:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3060</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What annoys me about this issue is that if I wrote a post about homosexuality or abortion or creationism v evolution I&#039;d get a lot more hits, a lot more comments and a lot more backlinks. That&#039;s not to knock the importance of some aspects of those issues but it is an endightment on our country&#039;s committment to freedom and civil liberty.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is because people are unaware of their liberties and value them too poorly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It is bread and circuses my dear, bread and circuses.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Recent blog post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://bethyada.blogspot.com/2009/07/why-doesnt-bible-address-x.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Why doesn&#039;t the Bible address X?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What annoys me about this issue is that if I wrote a post about homosexuality or abortion or creationism v evolution I&#39;d get a lot more hits, a lot more comments and a lot more backlinks. That&#39;s not to knock the importance of some aspects of those issues but it is an endightment on our country&#39;s committment to freedom and civil liberty.</i></p>
<p>It is because people are unaware of their liberties and value them too poorly.</p>
<p>It is bread and circuses my dear, bread and circuses.</p>
<p>Recent blog post: <a href="http://bethyada.blogspot.com/2009/07/why-doesnt-bible-address-x.html" rel="nofollow">Why doesn&#39;t the Bible address X?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Guest</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2.html#comment-3051</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 02:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-foreshore-and-seabed-repeal-the-inconvenience-of-due-process-2/#comment-3051</guid>
		<description>&quot;the right to due process trumps the right of the general public to enjoy the beach&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;...no..it doesn&#039;t.  Legally maybe,but not morally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;the right to due process trumps the right of the general public to enjoy the beach&quot;</p>
<p>&#8230;no..it doesn&#39;t.  Legally maybe,but not morally.</p>
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