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	<title>Comments on: Dear Cabinet,</title>
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	<description>Philosophy of Religion, Ethics, Theology and Jurisprudence</description>
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		<title>By: SWSomerville</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet.html#comment-3863</link>
		<dc:creator>SWSomerville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet/#comment-3863</guid>
		<description>Testing... please ignore this new comment</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Testing&#8230; please ignore this new comment</p>
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		<title>By: Tapestry of Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet.html#comment-3864</link>
		<dc:creator>Tapestry of Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet/#comment-3864</guid>
		<description>Testing... please ignore this comment!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Testing&#8230; please ignore this comment!</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet.html#comment-3853</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 21:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet/#comment-3853</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll have a look but I think you are right, it won&#039;t fly. Courts really try to avoid making statements that amount to this sort of thing, especially in New Zealand where courts do not have anything like the powers of your courts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;ll have a look but I think you are right, it won&#39;t fly. Courts really try to avoid making statements that amount to this sort of thing, especially in New Zealand where courts do not have anything like the powers of your courts.</p>
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		<title>By: Tapestry of Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet.html#comment-3850</link>
		<dc:creator>Tapestry of Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 11:34:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet/#comment-3850</guid>
		<description>Madeleine, if you have a criminal law handbook, you should be able to dig it up.  In my crim law class, we studied it right after the &quot;doctrine of legality,&quot; which says you can&#039;t be punished for a crime that isn&#039;t written down.  (No &quot;common law crimes.&quot;)  Now that I think of it, the doctrine of legality may be an American addition to English law...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The way I recall it being presented was, &quot;proof beyond a reasonable doubt includes reasonable doubts about the law,&quot; but I don&#039;t think you could find that phrase in a Westlaw search.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Unfortunately, I can pretty well guarantee that this legal doctrine won&#039;t help parents who are accused under this vague law.  I&#039;ve been there--way too many court cases defending innocent parents in child abuse cases.  The only precedent that truly explains what happens there can be found in Franz Kafka&#039;s &quot;The Trial.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;m not kidding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madeleine, if you have a criminal law handbook, you should be able to dig it up.  In my crim law class, we studied it right after the &quot;doctrine of legality,&quot; which says you can&#39;t be punished for a crime that isn&#39;t written down.  (No &quot;common law crimes.&quot;)  Now that I think of it, the doctrine of legality may be an American addition to English law&#8230;</p>
<p>The way I recall it being presented was, &quot;proof beyond a reasonable doubt includes reasonable doubts about the law,&quot; but I don&#39;t think you could find that phrase in a Westlaw search.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I can pretty well guarantee that this legal doctrine won&#39;t help parents who are accused under this vague law.  I&#39;ve been there&#8211;way too many court cases defending innocent parents in child abuse cases.  The only precedent that truly explains what happens there can be found in Franz Kafka&#39;s &quot;The Trial.&quot;</p>
<p>I&#39;m not kidding.</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet.html#comment-3847</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 06:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet/#comment-3847</guid>
		<description>TOG are you able to tell me more about that? Or point me to anything in Westlaw on it? I am not familiar with anything like that in NZ law but that doesn&#039;t mean it does not exist or is not possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TOG are you able to tell me more about that? Or point me to anything in Westlaw on it? I am not familiar with anything like that in NZ law but that doesn&#39;t mean it does not exist or is not possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Tapestry of Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet.html#comment-3832</link>
		<dc:creator>Tapestry of Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 00:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet/#comment-3832</guid>
		<description>In the US, there is THEORETICALLY a legal doctrine that an ambiguous criminal law must be construed in the interest of the criminal defendant. That would be one line of defense for a parent charged with the crime of smacking (we call it spanking in the US).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A jury trial in a criminal case in the US would almost certainly result in an acquittal.  Unfortunately for otherwise-good parents, cases involving children in the US almost never go to criminal court.  They are handled as quasi-criminal cases where the safety of the child is paramount.  Althoug we still presume that indicted criminals over here are innocent, there is no such presumption of innocence in a child abuse proceeding--because the parents are not being criminally charged.  The court will decide whether the parents get their children back, not whether the parents go to jail.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Having seen this in practice, I&#039;d love to see the US go back to prosecuting child abuse as a crime.  There are many parents who deserve to be in jail who aren&#039;t.  And there are many children in foster care who deserve to be back home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the US, there is THEORETICALLY a legal doctrine that an ambiguous criminal law must be construed in the interest of the criminal defendant. That would be one line of defense for a parent charged with the crime of smacking (we call it spanking in the US).</p>
<p>A jury trial in a criminal case in the US would almost certainly result in an acquittal.  Unfortunately for otherwise-good parents, cases involving children in the US almost never go to criminal court.  They are handled as quasi-criminal cases where the safety of the child is paramount.  Althoug we still presume that indicted criminals over here are innocent, there is no such presumption of innocence in a child abuse proceeding&#8211;because the parents are not being criminally charged.  The court will decide whether the parents get their children back, not whether the parents go to jail.</p>
<p>Having seen this in practice, I&#39;d love to see the US go back to prosecuting child abuse as a crime.  There are many parents who deserve to be in jail who aren&#39;t.  And there are many children in foster care who deserve to be back home.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet.html#comment-3829</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/08/dear-cabinet/#comment-3829</guid>
		<description>Madeleine&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;this is well thought out, and clearly articulated - thank you for sharing it with us&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;thanks also for your comment on my letter on my blog&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;we await the government&#039;s response</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madeleine</p>
<p>this is well thought out, and clearly articulated &#8211; thank you for sharing it with us</p>
<p>thanks also for your comment on my letter on my blog</p>
<p>we await the government&#39;s response</p>
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