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	<title>Comments on: Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I</title>
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	<description>Philosophy of Religion, Ethics, Theology and Jurisprudence</description>
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		<title>By: Theology Geek NZ &#187; The Separation of Church and Self: Rethinking Separationism</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-130061</link>
		<dc:creator>Theology Geek NZ &#187; The Separation of Church and Self: Rethinking Separationism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 10:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-130061</guid>
		<description>[...] POSTS: Contra Mundum: Secularism and Public Life Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part II Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part III [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] POSTS: Contra Mundum: Secularism and Public Life Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part II Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part III [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Voting is Open &#8211; September&#8217;s Giveaway &#124; The Church of Jesus Christ</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-98165</link>
		<dc:creator>Voting is Open &#8211; September&#8217;s Giveaway &#124; The Church of Jesus Christ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Oct 2010 10:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-98165</guid>
		<description>[...] Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Theology Geek NZ &#187; Contra Mundum: Secularism and Public Life</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-53566</link>
		<dc:creator>Theology Geek NZ &#187; Contra Mundum: Secularism and Public Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 May 2010 23:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-53566</guid>
		<description>[...] I acknowledge being influenced by my wife Madeleine Flannagan’s supervised research paper “Religious Restraint and Public Policy” which she wrote under the supervision of Professor Rishworth, the Dean of the University of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I acknowledge being influenced by my wife Madeleine Flannagan’s supervised research paper “Religious Restraint and Public Policy” which she wrote under the supervision of Professor Rishworth, the Dean of the University of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rangiora New Life College, Religion and Discrimination &#171; Theology Geek NZ</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-15296</link>
		<dc:creator>Rangiora New Life College, Religion and Discrimination &#171; Theology Geek NZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Dec 2009 11:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-15296</guid>
		<description>[...] RECOMMENDED READING: Religious Restraint and Public Policy [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] RECOMMENDED READING: Religious Restraint and Public Policy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part VI &#171; Theology Geek NZ</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-14389</link>
		<dc:creator>Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part VI &#171; Theology Geek NZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 06:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-14389</guid>
		<description>[...] my last posts, beginning Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I,  I set out the doctrine of religious restraint and critiqued some of the key arguments in support [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my last posts, beginning Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I,  I set out the doctrine of religious restraint and critiqued some of the key arguments in support [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-14180</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 20:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-14180</guid>
		<description>Psycho, there may be miscommunication here, as its used in philosophical discussions the an argument is said to be valid if and only if its true that &lt;i&gt;if&lt;/i&gt; the premises are true then the conclusion must be true. In this sense both arguments are valid, I think it is the case that if God commanded women to wear Burka’s and if divine commands are co-extensive with moral obligations then women would be required to where Burka’s. The real issue is wether the premises in question are true. I happen to think in both cases the premises are false. Ironically there is a sense I think in which the Burka argument is more persuasive than the one you mention, as I think the secular argument contains a premise which can fairly obviously be shown to be false. The Burka argument on the other hand can be shown to be false only if a person delves into certain controversial issues of theology and philosophy of religion. One would have to show either that Allah does not exist, or show that he did not inspire the Koran and Hadith in any relevant sense, or that these documents are not plausibly interpreted so as to require Burka wearing. Nether claim is simply obvious in a way that all intelligent educated people will immediately accept it, unless you assume that no educated intelligent Muslims exist, something I take to be fairly obviously false. 

I myself can think of an argument in favour of the Burka women which is better than both. It goes like this [1] its  prima facie wrong to require people to act in  violate their religious beliefs and act in a manner that they consider themselves to be engaging in the equivalent of a pornographic photo shot, in order to get access to public services like roads. [2] requiring women to take the Burka of for a drivers license does this. 

Now I think [1] is plausible, I would base it in part however on theological premises about the primacy of conscience, which much western commitment to freedom of religion is historically based on. I doubt I could give a knock down argument from premises all people accept to its truth, but in this it is no different from any argument for any substantial issue of public policy. I suspect however that this theologically based argument would be far more persuasive to most people than either we have discussed so far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Psycho, there may be miscommunication here, as its used in philosophical discussions the an argument is said to be valid if and only if its true that <i>if</i> the premises are true then the conclusion must be true. In this sense both arguments are valid, I think it is the case that if God commanded women to wear Burka’s and if divine commands are co-extensive with moral obligations then women would be required to where Burka’s. The real issue is wether the premises in question are true. I happen to think in both cases the premises are false. Ironically there is a sense I think in which the Burka argument is more persuasive than the one you mention, as I think the secular argument contains a premise which can fairly obviously be shown to be false. The Burka argument on the other hand can be shown to be false only if a person delves into certain controversial issues of theology and philosophy of religion. One would have to show either that Allah does not exist, or show that he did not inspire the Koran and Hadith in any relevant sense, or that these documents are not plausibly interpreted so as to require Burka wearing. Nether claim is simply obvious in a way that all intelligent educated people will immediately accept it, unless you assume that no educated intelligent Muslims exist, something I take to be fairly obviously false. </p>
<p>I myself can think of an argument in favour of the Burka women which is better than both. It goes like this [1] its  prima facie wrong to require people to act in  violate their religious beliefs and act in a manner that they consider themselves to be engaging in the equivalent of a pornographic photo shot, in order to get access to public services like roads. [2] requiring women to take the Burka of for a drivers license does this. </p>
<p>Now I think [1] is plausible, I would base it in part however on theological premises about the primacy of conscience, which much western commitment to freedom of religion is historically based on. I doubt I could give a knock down argument from premises all people accept to its truth, but in this it is no different from any argument for any substantial issue of public policy. I suspect however that this theologically based argument would be far more persuasive to most people than either we have discussed so far.</p>
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		<title>By: Psycho Milt</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-14177</link>
		<dc:creator>Psycho Milt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 20:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-14177</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The problem is you have not shown that religious arguments are never useful and secular ones are. &lt;/i&gt;

Really?  In the example of the driver&#039;s licence photo, the arguments on one side are valid; the argument of the other side amounts to &quot;God said so,&quot; which is in no sense a valid argument.
.-= My last blog-post ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://nominister.blogspot.com/2009/12/gareth-morgan-on-tax-overhaul.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gareth Morgan on tax overhaul&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The problem is you have not shown that religious arguments are never useful and secular ones are. </i></p>
<p>Really?  In the example of the driver&#8217;s licence photo, the arguments on one side are valid; the argument of the other side amounts to &#8220;God said so,&#8221; which is in no sense a valid argument.<br />
.-= My last blog-post ..<a href="http://nominister.blogspot.com/2009/12/gareth-morgan-on-tax-overhaul.html" rel="nofollow">Gareth Morgan on tax overhaul</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-14141</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 09:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-14141</guid>
		<description>Psycho in response to your points
1. You write &lt;i&gt; “As such a society could exist only in theoretical form, it doesn’t seem like a serious problem. That said, appeal to the supernatural remains a bad basis for lawmaking for merely practical reasons as well, for instance:” &lt;/i&gt; this is  false that societies where the majority accept some form of religion exist only in theory, one can think of numerous societies in the real world that this is true of. 

2.In response to the Burka issue you write &lt;i&gt;This would be plausible if there was actually an argument for stripping naked as a requirement for getting a license. &lt;/i&gt; this begs the question, if the Muslim womens beliefs about Burka&#039;s are correct, the state is demanding the equivalence of her stripping naked to get a license, that would clearly be an unjust law, the only reason you can say this is not occuring is if you assume the Muslim&#039;s beliefs are false, from the outset. 

You go on to suggest that the “ the basis for putting a picture on a driver’s licence, the argument for which is way more compelling than anything a woman wearing a burqa for religious reasons can come up with.” this is because &lt;i&gt; “ The premises are pretty straightforward. In some situations authorities need to identify the driver of a vehicle (and for the purposes of this discussion, let’s leave out why they should be allowed to do so, or we’ll have written a book by the time we’re finished); therefore the licence that the driver presents to the authority figure should allow said authority figure to identify the bearer as the owner of the licence. The means of establishing that should, in the interests of efficiency, involve as little time as possible, the minimum of equipment and the minimum of expense. Thus far, no-one’s come up with a system that better meets those criteria than putting the owner’s face on the licence.”

Actually the second premise of this argument is I think false and fairly uncompelling it suggests that the means employed in driver identification should be as cheap and efficent as possible. Thats mistaken, it should employ the cheapest most efficent morally &lt;i&gt;permissible means&lt;/i&gt;. One can never engage in an immoral means because its cheap and efficent. Hence this secular argument is not compelling at all.  

&lt;i&gt;In light of that, someone who wishes their face not to be on the licence must come up with at least equally compelling and equally practical reasons why not. What compelling, practical reasons are available in this case from appeals to the supernatural?&lt;/i&gt;
Well the women would argue from passages in the Koran and Hadith that Allah commands her to wear a burka. This is clearly practical, it after all tells us what to do in practise. Is it compelling, well it might be to those who accept the authority of the Koran and the Hadith. Of course it won&#039;t be compelling to those who do not. But in this its no different from the argument you give, as I noted above the argument you give has a false premise and hence one many  people can and should reject. Neither argument appeals to premises accepted by all rational people. 

3 You conclude&lt;i&gt; “I return to my original point: the asymmetry here is between arguments that are useful and arguments that aren’t.”&lt;i&gt; The problem is you have not shown that religious arguments are never &lt;i&gt;useful&lt;/i&gt; and secular ones are. If by useful you mean arguments that are likely to convince others, then both will appeal to premises that some people accept and others do not. The religious person will appeal to religious claims, the secularist to secular moral principles, neither will appeal to premises accepted by all rational people. Both are as useful then as each other.
.-= My last blog-post ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/contra-mundum-the-flat-earth-myth.html?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+mandmblog+%28MandM+Posts%29&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Contra Mundum: The Flat-Earth Myth&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Psycho in response to your points<br />
1. You write <i> “As such a society could exist only in theoretical form, it doesn’t seem like a serious problem. That said, appeal to the supernatural remains a bad basis for lawmaking for merely practical reasons as well, for instance:” </i> this is  false that societies where the majority accept some form of religion exist only in theory, one can think of numerous societies in the real world that this is true of. </p>
<p>2.In response to the Burka issue you write <i>This would be plausible if there was actually an argument for stripping naked as a requirement for getting a license. </i> this begs the question, if the Muslim womens beliefs about Burka&#8217;s are correct, the state is demanding the equivalence of her stripping naked to get a license, that would clearly be an unjust law, the only reason you can say this is not occuring is if you assume the Muslim&#8217;s beliefs are false, from the outset. </p>
<p>You go on to suggest that the “ the basis for putting a picture on a driver’s licence, the argument for which is way more compelling than anything a woman wearing a burqa for religious reasons can come up with.” this is because <i> “ The premises are pretty straightforward. In some situations authorities need to identify the driver of a vehicle (and for the purposes of this discussion, let’s leave out why they should be allowed to do so, or we’ll have written a book by the time we’re finished); therefore the licence that the driver presents to the authority figure should allow said authority figure to identify the bearer as the owner of the licence. The means of establishing that should, in the interests of efficiency, involve as little time as possible, the minimum of equipment and the minimum of expense. Thus far, no-one’s come up with a system that better meets those criteria than putting the owner’s face on the licence.”</p>
<p>Actually the second premise of this argument is I think false and fairly uncompelling it suggests that the means employed in driver identification should be as cheap and efficent as possible. Thats mistaken, it should employ the cheapest most efficent morally </i><i>permissible means</i>. One can never engage in an immoral means because its cheap and efficent. Hence this secular argument is not compelling at all.  </p>
<p><i>In light of that, someone who wishes their face not to be on the licence must come up with at least equally compelling and equally practical reasons why not. What compelling, practical reasons are available in this case from appeals to the supernatural?</i><br />
Well the women would argue from passages in the Koran and Hadith that Allah commands her to wear a burka. This is clearly practical, it after all tells us what to do in practise. Is it compelling, well it might be to those who accept the authority of the Koran and the Hadith. Of course it won&#8217;t be compelling to those who do not. But in this its no different from the argument you give, as I noted above the argument you give has a false premise and hence one many  people can and should reject. Neither argument appeals to premises accepted by all rational people. </p>
<p>3 You conclude<i> “I return to my original point: the asymmetry here is between arguments that are useful and arguments that aren’t.”</i><i> The problem is you have not shown that religious arguments are never </i><i>useful</i> and secular ones are. If by useful you mean arguments that are likely to convince others, then both will appeal to premises that some people accept and others do not. The religious person will appeal to religious claims, the secularist to secular moral principles, neither will appeal to premises accepted by all rational people. Both are as useful then as each other.<br />
.-= My last blog-post ..<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/contra-mundum-the-flat-earth-myth.html?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+mandmblog+%28MandM+Posts%29" rel="nofollow">Contra Mundum: The Flat-Earth Myth</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part V &#171; Theology Geek NZ</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-13909</link>
		<dc:creator>Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part V &#171; Theology Geek NZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-13909</guid>
		<description>[...] my last posts, beginning Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I,  I set out the doctrine of religious restraint and critiqued some of the key arguments in support [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my last posts, beginning Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I,  I set out the doctrine of religious restraint and critiqued some of the key arguments in support [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html#comment-13625</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1969#comment-13625</guid>
		<description>&quot;not an appeal to authority based on the supernatural.&quot;

And all point of view ends up appealing to the &#039;supernatural&#039; in the end. Not in all cases, but in some cases, especially on moral issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;not an appeal to authority based on the supernatural.&#8221;</p>
<p>And all point of view ends up appealing to the &#8216;supernatural&#8217; in the end. Not in all cases, but in some cases, especially on moral issues.</p>
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