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	<title>Comments on: Epistemology 101: Science, Faith and Authority Part I</title>
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	<description>Philosophy of Religion, Ethics, Theology and Jurisprudence</description>
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		<title>By: L</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-70849</link>
		<dc:creator>L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jul 2010 04:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The point of the last section is that you can&#039;t add anything to true belief (alethes doxa) that will enable it to fulfil the criteria for knowledge (reality and infallibility, explained at the beginning of the perception theory). Note that examples of alethes doxa such as the aviary are all internalist accounts, attempting to show that there could be such a thing as a self evident belief. Externalist accounts won&#039;t yield the subjective certainty that Plato takes to characterise episteme (i.e. we must know that we know).

True belief + an account faces the problem that if the account is to be known, then either there will have to be true belief and an account of it (and hence a regress), or &quot;to know&quot; will have two senses, and we will be back to square one. If, as some do (i.e. people who like the jury example), the second sense of &quot;to know&quot; is supposed to mean &quot;to perceive&quot;, then we just start at the beginning of the dialogue again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point of the last section is that you can&#8217;t add anything to true belief (alethes doxa) that will enable it to fulfil the criteria for knowledge (reality and infallibility, explained at the beginning of the perception theory). Note that examples of alethes doxa such as the aviary are all internalist accounts, attempting to show that there could be such a thing as a self evident belief. Externalist accounts won&#8217;t yield the subjective certainty that Plato takes to characterise episteme (i.e. we must know that we know).</p>
<p>True belief + an account faces the problem that if the account is to be known, then either there will have to be true belief and an account of it (and hence a regress), or &#8220;to know&#8221; will have two senses, and we will be back to square one. If, as some do (i.e. people who like the jury example), the second sense of &#8220;to know&#8221; is supposed to mean &#8220;to perceive&#8221;, then we just start at the beginning of the dialogue again.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-70535</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>L its been a while since I studied the Theaetetus, from memory however the last section starts by asking whether knowledge is a true judgement and then moves on to try and modify this with true judgement accompanied by an account, he finds all these insufficent.  But I don&#039;t remember him denying that true judgement ( what I call a belief) is necessary for knowledge. 

However, i will check.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>L its been a while since I studied the Theaetetus, from memory however the last section starts by asking whether knowledge is a true judgement and then moves on to try and modify this with true judgement accompanied by an account, he finds all these insufficent.  But I don&#8217;t remember him denying that true judgement ( what I call a belief) is necessary for knowledge. </p>
<p>However, i will check.</p>
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		<title>By: L</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-70528</link>
		<dc:creator>L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=3618#comment-70528</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a pretty substantial error here, Matt. 

You talk about Plato, but Platonists, including Plato himself, did not believe that belief was a necessary condition for knowledge. Plato himself argues that they are radically separate, and in the Theaetetus, he spends the final half of the dialogue ridiculing the idea that any sort of belief (justified or not) can ever be knowledge.

Most contemporary epistemology rests on the error of accepting Plato&#039;s criteria for knowledge and at the same time trying to find a way to turn belief into knowledge. This is pretty dumb, since Plato made a point of demonstrating that they were incompatible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a pretty substantial error here, Matt. </p>
<p>You talk about Plato, but Platonists, including Plato himself, did not believe that belief was a necessary condition for knowledge. Plato himself argues that they are radically separate, and in the Theaetetus, he spends the final half of the dialogue ridiculing the idea that any sort of belief (justified or not) can ever be knowledge.</p>
<p>Most contemporary epistemology rests on the error of accepting Plato&#8217;s criteria for knowledge and at the same time trying to find a way to turn belief into knowledge. This is pretty dumb, since Plato made a point of demonstrating that they were incompatible.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-69094</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 01:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Madeleine - I have already been in contact with Glyn Carpenter on this. I just think that because of the importance of the issue someone should be covering the outcome - even if only blogs.

I am sure others are interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madeleine &#8211; I have already been in contact with Glyn Carpenter on this. I just think that because of the importance of the issue someone should be covering the outcome &#8211; even if only blogs.</p>
<p>I am sure others are interested.</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-69067</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=3618#comment-69067</guid>
		<description>Matt only went to the first day, not the second so we are not completely clear on what came out of it yet. I will let the organisers know about your question Ken and invite them to respond.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt only went to the first day, not the second so we are not completely clear on what came out of it yet. I will let the organisers know about your question Ken and invite them to respond.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-69062</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Is there any feedback on what eventuated at this forum.? Was there any agreement on a statement or indication of relative support for the science vs people like Wishart and Brill?

I think this, rather than any individual presentation, is the important information.

From what I can gather there seems only to have been a decision to distribute the material - which seems a cop-out given the importance and urgency of the subject.

However, I may be wrong. 

Could someone clarify?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any feedback on what eventuated at this forum.? Was there any agreement on a statement or indication of relative support for the science vs people like Wishart and Brill?</p>
<p>I think this, rather than any individual presentation, is the important information.</p>
<p>From what I can gather there seems only to have been a decision to distribute the material &#8211; which seems a cop-out given the importance and urgency of the subject.</p>
<p>However, I may be wrong. </p>
<p>Could someone clarify?</p>
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		<title>By: Maxanon</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-69056</link>
		<dc:creator>Maxanon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>RE: Madailane

Matt... sorry.  I was under the false impression that this was a yet to be delivered talk and thought I&#039;d give my feedback... was not meant to be a post-event analysis!   Glad to hear it went well and if it worked and went down with the audience.  The proof is in the pudding!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Madailane</p>
<p>Matt&#8230; sorry.  I was under the false impression that this was a yet to be delivered talk and thought I&#8217;d give my feedback&#8230; was not meant to be a post-event analysis!   Glad to hear it went well and if it worked and went down with the audience.  The proof is in the pudding!</p>
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		<title>By: Murph</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-68859</link>
		<dc:creator>Murph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 12:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=3618#comment-68859</guid>
		<description>I would not confuse &quot;well-educated&quot; for knowledgeable in basic philosophy skills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would not confuse &#8220;well-educated&#8221; for knowledgeable in basic philosophy skills.</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-68857</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 12:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=3618#comment-68857</guid>
		<description>M-bot, Matt&#039;s brief was to pitch at lay-level. It seems he succeeded and from what I hear from comments Matt received on the day and emails since it was well received - from both sides of the debate.

Keep in mind that this is Part I of our blog series and it is basically the introduction, but on the day the three posts that will make up this series were just one talk and it does pick up from here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>M-bot, Matt&#8217;s brief was to pitch at lay-level. It seems he succeeded and from what I hear from comments Matt received on the day and emails since it was well received &#8211; from both sides of the debate.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that this is Part I of our blog series and it is basically the introduction, but on the day the three posts that will make up this series were just one talk and it does pick up from here.</p>
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		<title>By: M-bot</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/epistemology-101-science-faith-and-authority-part-i.html#comment-68854</link>
		<dc:creator>M-bot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 12:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=3618#comment-68854</guid>
		<description>I worry that you might be talking down to a well-educated crowd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I worry that you might be talking down to a well-educated crowd.</p>
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