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	<title>MandM &#187; Lydia McGrew</title>
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		<title>Guest Post: Tim McGrew defends &#8220;The Argument from Miracles: A Cumulative Case for the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/05/guest-post-tim-mcgrew-defends-the-argument-from-miracles-a-cumulative-case-for-the-resurrection-of-jesus-of-nazareth.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=guest-post-tim-mcgrew-defends-the-argument-from-miracles-a-cumulative-case-for-the-resurrection-of-jesus-of-nazareth</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/05/guest-post-tim-mcgrew-defends-the-argument-from-miracles-a-cumulative-case-for-the-resurrection-of-jesus-of-nazareth.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 May 2011 05:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Guest Posts]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bayesian Probability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Deane Galbraith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Guest Post]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lydia McGrew]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Probability of the Resurrection]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Resurrection]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tim McGrew]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=8993</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A little while back we published a post linking to some talks by Tim McGrew on Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels. For some bizarre reason this post of ours prompted fellow kiwi blogger Deane Galbraith to write a post on the Bulletin for the Study of Religion, linking to our post, on the separate topic of Tim [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;"><a rel="attachment wp-att-8780" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/04/undesigned-coincidences-in-the-gospels-tim-mcgrew.html/mcgrew"><img class="alignright size-medium wp-image-8780" style="margin-left: 7px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 5px; margin-bottom: 0px;" title="Tim McGrew" src="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/mcgrew-281x300.jpg" alt="Tim McGrew" width="135" height="144" /></a>A little while back we published a post linking to some talks by Tim McGrew on <a title="Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels – Tim McGrew" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/04/undesigned-coincidences-in-the-gospels-tim-mcgrew.html" target="_blank">Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels</a>. For some bizarre reason this post of ours prompted fellow kiwi blogger Deane Galbraith to write a post on the <a href="http://www.equinoxjournals.com/blog/2010/10/odds-on-the-resurrection-of-jesus-100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000-to-1/" target="_blank">Bulletin for the Study of Religion</a>, linking to our post, on the separate topic of Tim and his wife Lydia McGrew&#8217;s article &#8220;<a href="http://www.lydiamcgrew.com/Resurrectionarticlesinglefile.pdf">The Argument from Miracles: A Cumulative Case for the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth</a>&#8221; which was published in the <em>The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Here is a snippet of Galbraith&#8217;s post from the beginning:</p>
<blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">There are quite a few academic and quasi-academic studies in which statistical analysis seems to be employed as a substitute for thinking. It is, perhaps, fairly understandable why some people are tempted by the allure of numbers. Those mysteriously complex formulae, mindnumblingly boring statistics and obscure mathematical notations lend a magical aura of scientific objectivity and plausibility to even the most patently absurd claims.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">What gets me talking about this at this moment is my dumbfounded reading last night of an article published by <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/04/undesigned-coincidences-in-the-gospels-tim-mcgrew.html">Timothy McGrew</a> and Lydia McGrew, entitled<a href="http://www.lydiamcgrew.com/Resurrectionarticlesinglefile.pdf">“The Argument from Miracles: A Cumulative Case for the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth”</a> (2009). In this article, the McGrews utilize Bayesian probability in order to argue to the “scientific” conclusion that the probability of the resurrection of Jesus is a “staggering” 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,<br />
000,000,000,000,000 to 1.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Are you staggered? overwhelmed? swooning? Were you previously skeptical about the Christian claim that Jesus was resurrected, but now you’re feeling pretty silly? Perhaps not.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The post goes on in the same vein to accuse the McGrews of trying to trick people into belief in the resurrection. It is littered with terms like &#8220;flimsy basis&#8221;, &#8220;populist apologetics&#8221;, &#8220;fanciful&#8221; and &#8220;deeply and unavoidably farcical&#8221; and is illustrated complete with a giant white-robed Caucasian Jesus wistfully looking heavenward as he steps out of the tomb. It finishes with Galbraith laying out his understanding of their mathematical reasoning, the tone at this point is dripping with lashings of smug, self-congratulation at how easily he, PhD student from Otago whose research area is giants in the Old Testament narrative, had dispatched two of the top philosophers of religion working in this field, both specialists in probability theory.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Not being qualified remotely in Bayesian probability theory myself, and therefore not wanting to presume anything beyond assessing the tone as exceedingly arrogant, I passed on Galbraith&#8217;s criticisms to the McGrews on Facebook. Well it turns out that Galbraith isn&#8217;t the only non-qualified liberal/atheist to take a punt at their reasoning on this piece. Tim McGrew explains that straw men have been popping up all over.</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><strong><span style="font-variant: small-caps;">Straw Men Burning: Misinterpretations of our Article on the Resurrection</span></strong></span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">One of the hazards of writing technical philosophy is the risk that someone who lacks the appropriate expertise will attempt to critique it. In the case of the <a href="http://www.lydiamcgrew.com/Resurrectionarticlesinglefile.pdf" target="_blank">article on the resurrection</a> that Lydia and I wrote for <em>The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology</em>, this has <a href="http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=10150" target="_blank">already happened</a>. It is hard enough to <a href="http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=13773" target="_blank">correct misimpressions</a> of this sort on a relatively neutral topic; when the subject rouses passions of the sort that, as Hume reminds us, religious disputes are apt to generate, then the difficulties are redoubled.</span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">But one thing that we did not anticipate is that <span id="more-8993"></span>people who are completely clueless would <a href="http://www.equinoxjournals.com/blog/2010/10/odds-on-the-resurrection-of-jesus-100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000-to-1/" target="_blank">undertake to explain the article</a> to the rest of the world, in the process completely garbling the central claim and shedding absolutely no light on any of the surrounding issues. Since this particular exhibition of aggressive incompetence is now being <a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2011/05/did-you-know-odds-on-resurrection-of.html#1_undefined,0_" target="_blank">uncritically rebroadcast</a> by people who are unable or unwilling actually to <em>read</em> the article, it is worth making a few salient points:</span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">1. Nowhere in the article do we give, estimate, or suggest &#8220;odds on the resurrection.&#8221; Near the outset we explicitly disclaim any attempt to do so, writing:</span></p>
<blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Even as we focus on the resurrection of Jesus, our aim is limited. To show that the probability of R given all evidence relevant to it is high would require us to examine other evidence bearing on the existence of God, since such other evidence – both positive and negative – is indirectly relevant to the occurrence of the resurrection. Examining every piece of data relevant to R more directly – including, for example, the many issues in textual scholarship and archeology which we shall discuss only briefly – would require many volumes. Our intent, rather, is to examine a small set of salient public facts that strongly support R. The historical facts in question are, we believe, those most pertinent to the argument. Our aim is to show that this evidence, taken cumulatively, provides a strong argument of the sort Richard Swinburne calls “C-inductive” – that is, whether or not P(R) is greater than some specified value such as .5 or .9 given <em>all</em>evidence, this evidence itself heavily favors R over ~R.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">The ratio of 10^44 to 1 is a likelihood ratio, not odds. People who do not understand the difference between these two ratios should not attempt to discuss the mathematical parts of the article.</span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">2. We are very explicit about our assumptions. In the online version of the article, on p. 39, we make it plain that our calculation</span></p>
<blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">is predicated on the assumption that in matters other than the explicit claims of miracles, the gospels and the book of Acts are generally reliable – that they may be trusted as much as any ordinary document of secular history with respect to the secularly describable facts they affirm. And where they do recount miraculous events, such as Jesus&#8217; post-resurrection appearances, we assume that they are authentic – that is, that they tell us what the disciples claimed. This calculation tells us little about the evidence for the resurrection if those assumptions are false. We have provided reasons to accept them, but of course there is much more to be said on the issue.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">3. We are quite aware that the assumption of independence is critical, and we discuss this matter extensively on pp. 40-46. It is wearying to see commentators who have not bothered actually to read the article confidently proclaiming that we have overlooked the possibility of dependence.</span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Readers are of course free to disagree with our actual conclusions. It would be cheering, however, if they would first take the trouble to understand what those conclusions are.</span></p>
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		<title>Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels &#8211; Tim McGrew</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/04/undesigned-coincidences-in-the-gospels-tim-mcgrew.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=undesigned-coincidences-in-the-gospels-tim-mcgrew</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/04/undesigned-coincidences-in-the-gospels-tim-mcgrew.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2011 07:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Faith and Reason]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Historical Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lydia McGrew]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[MP3]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Timothy McGrew]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=8779</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If we have a question on the historicity of the resurrection, Timothy McGrew is our first port of call; there is no one we would turn to before him on the subject. Tim is also highly regarded for his work on probability theory and on miracles &#8211; he is the author of “Miracles” for the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;"><a rel="attachment wp-att-8780" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/04/undesigned-coincidences-in-the-gospels-tim-mcgrew.html/mcgrew"><img class="alignright size-medium wp-image-8780" style="margin-left: 7px; margin-right: 0px; margin-top: 5px; margin-bottom: 0px;" title="Timothy McGrew" src="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/mcgrew-281x300.jpg" alt="Timothy McGrew" width="135" height="144" /></a>If we have a question on the historicity of the resurrection, <a href="http://homepages.wmich.edu/~mcgrew/cv.htm" target="_blank">Timothy McGrew</a> is our first port of call; there is no one we would turn to before him on the subject. Tim is also highly regarded for his work on probability theory and on miracles &#8211; he is the author of “<a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/miracles/">Miracles</a>” for the <em>Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy</em>. We have previously linked to his <a title="Tim McGrew’s Library of Historical Apologetics: Rediscovering Forgotten Defenders of the Faith" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/08/tim-mcgrews-library-of-historical-apologetics-rediscovering-forgotten-defenders-of-the-faith.html" target="_blank">Library of Historical Apologetics</a>.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">I mention all this because Tim recently gave an excellent talk, which is available free as an MP3 and is entitled &#8220;<a href="http://www.fbckenner.org/audio/jan2011/010911A%20.mp3" target="_blank">Undesigned Coincidences in the Gospels</a>.&#8221; Tim&#8217;s wife, Lydia McGrew, who first alerted us to this talk, <a href="http://lydiaswebpage.blogspot.com/2011/01/undesigned-coincidences.html" target="_blank">writes</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels &#8230; is an argument that was well-known in the nineteenth century but has, for no really clear reason, simply been forgotten as time has gone on. It is a cumulative case argument that the Gospels reflect, to an important extent, independent knowledge of actual events. Please note that this argument is quite independent of one&#8217;s preferred answer to the synoptic question. That is to say, even if, e.g., Mark was the first Gospel and others had access to Mark and show signs of literary dependence on Mark, the argument from undesigned coincidences provides evidence for independent knowledge of real events among the Gospel writers. There are many more of such coincidences beyond those given in the talk.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Two of Tim&#8217;s other talks, which overlap the material in this talk but also extend it, &#8220;Beyond Minimal Facts, Part I: External Evidences&#8221; and &#8220;Beyond Minimal Facts, Part II: Internal Evidences&#8221; can be ordered for a small fee &#8211; <a href="http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2011/04/on_obtaining_two_more_apologet.html" target="_blank">details here</a>. Matt and I have both of these and can highly recommend them.</p>
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		<slash:comments>28</slash:comments>
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		<title>Podcasts on Christian Physicalism and The Probability of Christianity</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/10/podcasts-on-christian-physicalism-and-the-probability-of-christianity.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=podcasts-on-christian-physicalism-and-the-probability-of-christianity</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/10/podcasts-on-christian-physicalism-and-the-probability-of-christianity.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Oct 2010 05:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Podcasts]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Conversations from the Pale Blue Dot]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Fine-Tuning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Glenn Peoples]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Haldane]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Luke Muehlhauser]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lydia McGrew]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Physicalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Probability of the Resurrection]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Unbelievable?]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=4172</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Matt and I have been listening to podcasts in the evening lately. These two, featuring two of our friends, who are both philosophers and bloggers, are really worth a listen. Glenn on Physicalism Glenn Peoples, of Say Hello to my Little Friend: The Beretta Blog and Podcast, recently spoke at the University of Oxford at the annual conference [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;">Matt and I have been listening to podcasts in the evening lately. These two, featuring two of our friends, who are both philosophers and bloggers, are really worth a listen.</p>
<p><span style="font-variant: small-caps;"><strong><span style="font-size: medium;">Glenn on Physicalism<br />
 </span></strong></span>Glenn Peoples, of <a href="http://www.beretta-online.com/wordpress/">Say Hello to my Little Friend: The Beretta Blog and Podcast</a>, recently spoke at the University of Oxford at the annual conference of the European Society for the Philosophy of Religion on the topic &#8220;Raising the Justificatory Hurdle: How to Make Sure Religion Stays Out of Politics No Matter What&#8221; and while he was there he appeared on the UK&#8217;s <em><a href="http://www.premierradio.org.uk/shows/saturday/unbelievable.aspx">Unbelievable?</a></em><a href="http://www.premierradio.org.uk/shows/saturday/unbelievable.aspx"> radio show</a> to debate the issue of physicalism with John Haldane.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong><em>Listen to: </em><a href="http://www.premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={7A2179A8-B2C2-4F32-BE24-2AFF6628FF9F}">Christian Physicalism: Do we have a soul?</a></strong><strong> &#8211; </strong><em><strong>Unbelievable?</strong></em><strong> 04 Sep 2010</strong></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Christians have traditionally held that humans comprise two things &#8211; a body and a soul.  Christian Philosophers have written in defence of the soul against a reductive atheism that claims we are material beings alone.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">But a new movement in Christian philosophy claims that the atheists are correct, at least when it comes to humans.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>Dr <a href="http://www.beretta-online.​com/CV.html">Glenn Peoples</a></em> is a Christian philosopher who subscribes to physicalism &#8211; that humans are only physical and they have no immaterial soul.  He explains how he arrived at that view from Scripture and how he defends it philosophically, without giving up an evangelical Christian view.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>Prof <a href="http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jjh1/">John Haldane</a></em> is a Christian philosopher at St Andrews University in Scotland.  He believes that Christian faith and Philosophy bear witness to an immaterial soul &#8211; though his &#8220;Thomistic&#8221; view defends it differently to the prevailing trend.</p>
</blockquote>
<p><br class="spacer_" /></p>
<p><span style="font-variant: small-caps;"><strong><span style="font-size: medium;">Lydia on The Probability of Christianity<br />
 </span></strong></span>Dr <a href="http://www.lydiamcgrew.com/LMCV.htm" target="_blank">Lydia McGrew</a>, of <a href="http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/">What’s Wrong With the World</a> and <a href="http://lydiaswebpage.blogspot.com/">Extra Thoughts</a>, has recently co-authored a Bayesian defence of the historicity of the resurrection in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Blackwell-Companion-Natural-Theology/dp/1405176571" target="_blank">The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology</a>, and so Luke Muehlhauser, of Common Sense Atheism, interviewed her for his podcast, <em><a href="http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=10555">Conversations from the Pale Blue Dot</a>.</em></p>
<div style="text-align: justify;"><strong><em>Listen to:</em> <a rel="bookmark" href="http://ia700408.us.archive.org/8/items/ConversationsFromThePaleBlueDot071LydiaMcgrew/071-LydiaMcgrew.mp3" target="_blank">Lydia McGrew – The Probability of Christianity</a> </strong><strong>- <em>CPBD</em> episode 071</strong></div>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Lydia describes herself as &#8216;a homemaker and home schooling mum who does analytic philosophy in some of her spare time.&#8217; She is very good at it, as you will quickly pick up in her discussion with Luke. They talk about, among other things:</p>
<ul>
<blockquote>
<li>The probability of the Resurrection v the probability of witchcraft at Salem and the Hindu milk miracle</li>
<li>The practice of Christian philosophy</li>
<li>The fine-tuning argument</li>
<li>God as an explanation</li>
</blockquote>
</ul>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Listen carefully to work out which blogger from this blog gets cited in an example <img src='http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part VI</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-vi.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-vi</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-vi.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 05:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[God and Morality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jurists]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophy of Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Political Philosophy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion in Public Life]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rights and Freedoms]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Studies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christopher Eberle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Doctrine of Religious Restraint]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Freedom of Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jurisprudence]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Law Studies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lydia McGrew]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Nicholas Wolterstorff]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Phillip Quinn]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Public Policy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Robert Audi]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Stephen Carter]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Terence Cuneo]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=2076</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my last posts, beginning Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I,  I set out the doctrine of religious restraint and critiqued some of the key arguments in support of it. I looked at the objection that the argument from respect is too thin, that applied consistently it excludes too much and Audi’s response to [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>In my last posts, beginning </em><em><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html">Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I</a></em><em>,  I set out the doctrine of religious restraint and critiqued some of the key arguments in support of it. </em><em>I looked at the objection that the argument from respect is too thin, that applied consistently it excludes too much and</em><em> Audi’s response to this.</em><em> I examined and critiqued Gerald Gaus’ attempt to salvage the argument from epistemic inaccessibility and his idea </em><em>of open justification. In this post</em><em> I will look at the dangers of religion as a justification for its asymmetrical treatment within the DRR and conclude the series.<br />
 </em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>B          The Dangers of Religion</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">One explanation as to why this asymmetry is applied to religious reasons is offered by Quinn; “Some people fear that religious argument is apt to be dangerously divisive.”<a href="#_ftn1">[82]</a> Audi concurs, “[religious reasons] are special in relation to liberal democracy even by contrast with [secular reasons] … that are not accessible to any normal adult.” <a href="#_ftn2">[83]</a> He gives five “salient points” to support his case, all based on the idea that religious reasons are dangerous to society. <a href="#_ftn3">[84]</a></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">First Audi claims that religious reasons are often “directly or indirectly taken to represent an infallible authority”.<a href="#_ftn4">[85]</a> The second point is that religious people often “believe that anyone who does not identify with [the ultimate divine source] is forsaken, damned, or in some other way fundamentally deficient.”<a href="#_ftn5">[86]</a> Third, “religious reasons often dictate practices that are distinctively religious in content (such as prayer) or intent (such as preserving the fetus on the ground that it is a gift from God)”.<a href="#_ftn6">[87]</a> Fourth, with many religious leaders, especially leaders of cults, there is a risk that they are “cloaking their prejudices with absolute authority.”<a href="#_ftn7">[88]</a> Finally, Audi contends that religious people tend to be “highly and stubbornly passionate about the importance of everyone’s acting in accordance with religious reasons”.<a href="#_ftn8">[89]</a></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Again these features are not unique to religion. As McGrew argues, all these features can be equally present in secular people and movements;<a href="#_ftn9">[90]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">It is sadly amusing to read this list and to consider how well its negative aspects apply to secular people and movements. Communism, for example, is as fanatical as any conventional religion and demands group-think on an unrivaled scale. Contemporary feminism aspires to control worldview, language, and behavior. The New Atheists are exceedingly passionate about making people behave in accordance with their own beliefs (making sure children are taught Darwinism as unquestioned fact, for example), and Richard Dawkins and P.Z. Myers have an inflated sense of self-importance that would make many a Christian megachurch pastor look modest by comparison. Dawkins is infamous for having repeatedly and insistently called a religious upbringing “child abuse,” and while Dawkins has shied away from the obvious legal implications of this accusation, not everyone who thinks as he does is so cautious. Other secularists, self-styled “comprehensive liberals,” have expressly advocated the use of the power of the state to monitor and limit parents’ ability to transmit their religion to their children (see Hitchcock, 2004). As for the vicious condemnation of children who do not fully conform to their parents’ secular ideology, a good example of this phenomenon is the strange story of Rebecca Walker, daughter of feminist icon Alice Walker. And, on the other hand, there are plenty of religious people who do not display such negative characteristics. It simply does not appear to be true that we reduce fanaticism, self-important leadership, attempts at thought control, and the like in society by reducing the role of religion in public life.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">McGrew suggests there are secular analogues of even Audi’s third reason, that religious reasons often dictate practices that are distinctively religious in content or intent;<a href="#_ftn10">[91]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">It would certainly be undesirable if people were being coerced to pray to any God, even the true God. But then, secular ideology can and sometimes does demand that we do homage to itself—in the form of changing our language to make it politically correct, for example, or treating two men or two women as “married” in all of our business activities. The problem with forcing people to pray to the true God is that the true God is not truly worshiped in that fashion. The problem with forcing people to pray to false gods and to pledge allegiance to false ideologies is that they are false. You will not avoid the problem of the coercion of conscience by limiting the role of religion in public life. You will only shift that problem so that the unreasonable coercion comes from some quarters rather than others.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Audi’s first point invites a parallel rejoinder. He defines infallible propositions as those that are “impossible that they be both endorsed or accepted by God and false”.<a href="#_ftn11">[92]</a> On this definition of infallibility <em>every</em> proposition is infallible. God, as Audi understands him, is omniscient. God only believes true propositions. It follows then that any proposition God accepts cannot be false; this is true whether it is a religious proposition or a secular one.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Audi’s main concern is that a person who believes an action is commanded by God believes that an omniscient, infallible being has endorsed that action. Appeals to purported divine commands are therefore problematic. However, some secular ethical theories face precisely the same problem.  One of the most influential secular theories, endorsed by ethicists as diverse as David Hume, Adam Smith, Henry Sidgwick, Richard Hare, Roderick Firth, John Stuart Mill, Tom Regan, Richard Brandt, Immanuel Kant and others, is the ideal observer theory. On this theory an action is wrong, if and only if, it would be proscribed by an ideal observer, by a person who is perfectly impartial and perfectly informed on all the relevant facts. A hypothetical ideal observer is no less infallible than religious believers take God to be. It is hard to see how invoking religious reasons is not acceptable but invoking the secular reasons is.<a href="#_ftn12">[93]</a></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>C         Argument from Religious Wars</em><br />
 A more forcible danger of religion argument invokes the spectre of religious wars. Audi states “if religious considerations are not appropriately balanced with secular ones in matters of coercion, there is a special problem: a clash of Gods vying for social control. Such uncompromising absolutes easily lead to destruction and death”<a href="#_ftn13">[94]</a> Wolterstorff articulates the concern;<a href="#_ftn14">[95]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">One reason which liberals have offered ever since the emergence of liberalism in the seventeenth century is that it’s just too dangerous to let religious people debate political issues outside of their own confessional circles, and to act politically, on the basis of their religious views. The only way to forestall religious wars is to get people to stop invoking God and to stop invoking canonical scriptures when arguing and determining politics.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The adequacy of this argument can be contested on several grounds. First, Quinn, Greenwald and Wolterstorff note that while it was true of 17<sup>th</sup> century England, “social peace did depend on getting citizens to stop invoking God, canonical scriptures, and religious authorities when discussing politics in public”,<a href="#_ftn15">[96]</a> it is not plausible that such a danger exists in 21<sup>st</sup> century Western countries like New Zealand, Australia and the United States. Quinn notes, “current political debate in the United States exhibits failure to comply with Audi&#8217;s principles on a massive scale and yet shows no tendency to reignite the Wars of Religion of the early modern era.”<a href="#_ftn16">[97]</a></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Wolterstorff makes two other related points. He notes that “the slaughter, torture, and generalised brutality of our century has mainly been conducted in the name of one or another secular cause&#8211;nationalism of many sorts, communism, fascism, patriotisms of various kinds, economic hegemony.”<a href="#_ftn17">[98]</a> Second, he notes that “many of the social movements in the modern world that have moved societies in the direction of liberal democracy have been deeply and explicitly religious in their orientation”<a href="#_ftn18">[99]</a> He cites the abolitionist movement, the civil rights movement and movements resisting communism, facism and apartheid as examples. The invocation of religious reasons risks war and civil strife when certain types of religious reasons are invoked in particular socio-political contexts. This is equally true of secular reasons; certain types of secular reasons can be dangerously incendiary in particular socio-political contexts. There seems no basis for an asymmetry between secular and religious reasons on these grounds.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Eberle and Cuneo add that 17<sup>th</sup> century “confessional conflict … [was] typically rooted in egregious violations of the right to religious freedom, when, for example, people are jailed, tortured, or otherwise abused because of their religious commitments.”<a href="#_ftn19">[100]</a> Given that few, if any, who appeal to religious reasons advocate such violations or could plausibly bring them about, such appeals are unlikely to have tumultuous effects.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">In terms of protecting freedom of religion from these kinds of abuses it is not obvious that secular reasons fare any better, “secularists have a long history of hostility to the right to religious freedom and, presumably, that hostility isn&#8217;t at all grounded in religious considerations”.<a href="#_ftn20">[101]</a> Moreover when<a href="#_ftn21">[102]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">religious believers have employed coercive power to violate the right to religious freedom, they themselves rarely have done so in a way that violates the DRR … when such rights have been violated, the justifications offered, even by religious believers, appeal to alleged requirements for social order, such as the need for uniformity of belief on basic normative issues. One theological apologist for religious repression, for example, writes this: ‘The king punishes heretics as enemies, as extremely wicked rebels, who endanger the peace of the kingdom, which cannot be maintained without the unity of the faith. That is why they are burnt in Spain’.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Similarly, Aquinas, in a Rawlsian vein, famously justified the suppression of heretics by appealing to the accepted political culture of his day which required that counterfeiters be executed.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Consequently, the religious wars of the 17<sup>th</sup> century were caused, not by the appeal to religious reasons <em>per se</em> but rather by the violation of religious freedom; this violation has often been defended on secular grounds. It is unlikely that the DRR provides a bulwark against such abuses.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong>III        Conclusion</strong></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">On examining the DRR it appears that there is no good reason for singling out religious reasons for a particular restraint and limiting discourse to secular reasons. The grounds offered for doing so, the golden rule, the epistemic accessibility of religious premises, the dangers of religion and the potential for religious wars all apply with equal force to secular beliefs. Hence, the restriction appears arbitrary. Moreover, as applied, the DRR is often incoherent and if applied consistently would render most substantive coercive laws unjustified. The current practice of equating secularism with neutrality is flawed.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">As Carter eloquently puts it,<a href="#_ftn22">[103]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">What is needed is not a requirement that the religiously devout choose a form of dialogue that liberalism accepts, but that liberalism develop a politics that accepts whatever form of dialogue a member of the public offers. Epistemic diversity, like diversity of other kinds, should be cherished, not ignored, and certainly not abolished. What is needed, then, is a willingness to <em>listen, </em>not because the speaker has <em>the right voice </em>but because the speaker has <em>the right to speak. </em>Moreover, the willingness to listen must hold out the possibility that the speaker is saying something worth listening to; to do less is to trivialize the forces that shape the moral convictions of tens of millions of Americans.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>This series was written as a <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/my-supervised-research-paper-grade.....html#more-1966">supervised research paper in pursuit of my LLB</a>. </em></p>
<hr style="text-align: justify;" size="1" />
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><a href="#_ftnref1">[82]</a> Phillip Quinn “Political Liberalisms and Their Exclusions of the Religious” (1995) 69:2 Proceedings and Addresses of the American Philosophical Association 35, 143.<a href="#_ftnref2"><br />
 [83]</a> Robert Audi “Liberal Democracy and the Place of Religion in Politics” in Nicholas Wolterstorff &amp; Robert Audi (eds) <em>Religion in the Public Square: The Place of Religious Convictions in Political Debate</em> (Rowman and Littlefield Publishers Inc, Lanham Md, 1997) 1-66, 31.<a href="#_ftnref3"><br />
 [84]</a> Ibid 31-32.<a href="#_ftnref4"><br />
 [85]</a> Ibid 31.<a href="#_ftnref5"><br />
 [86]</a> Ibid.<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref6">[87]</a> Ibid.<a href="#_ftnref7"><br />
 [88]</a> Ibid 31-32.<a href="#_ftnref8"><br />
 [89]</a> Ibid 32.<a href="#_ftnref9"><br />
 [90]</a> Lydia McGrew “<a href="http://www.christendomreview.com/Volume001Issue001/index.html">The Irrational Faith of the Naked Public Square</a>” (2008) 1 The Christendom Review (at 2 October 2009).<a href="#_ftnref10"><br />
 [91]</a> Ibid.<a href="#_ftnref11"><br />
 [92]</a> Audi, above n83, 63.<a href="#_ftnref12"><br />
 [93]</a> I am grateful to Matthew Flannagan for the development of this point.<a href="#_ftnref13"><br />
 [94]</a> Robert Audi <em>Religious Commitment and Secular Reason</em> (Cambridge University Press, New York, 2000) 103.<a href="#_ftnref14"><br />
 [95]</a> Nicholas Wolterstorff “Why we should Reject what Liberalism tells us About Speaking and Acting in Public for Religious Reasons” in Paul Weithman (ed) <em>Religion and Contemporary Liberalism</em> (University of Notre Dame Press, Notre Dame IN, 1997) 167.<a href="#_ftnref15"><br />
 [96]</a> Nicholas Wolterstorff “The Role of Religion in Decision and Discussion of Political Issues” in Nicholas Wolterstorff &amp; Robert Audi (eds) <em>Religion in the Public Square: The Place of Religious Convictions in Political Debate</em> (Rowman and Littlefield Publishers Inc, Lanham Md, 1997) 67-120, 79.<a href="#_ftnref16"><br />
 [97]</a> Quinn, above n82, 39.<a href="#_ftnref17"><br />
 [98]</a> Wolterstorff, above n96, 80.<a href="#_ftnref18"><br />
 [99]</a> Christopher J. Eberle and Terence Cuneo “<a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-politics/">Religion and Political Theory</a>” (2008) <em>Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy</em> (at 9 August 2009).<a href="#_ftnref19"><br />
 [100]</a> Ibid.<a href="#_ftnref20"><br />
 [101]</a> Ibid.<a href="#_ftnref21"><br />
 [102]</a> Ibid.<a href="#_ftnref22"><br />
 [103]</a> Stephen Carter <em>The Culture of Disbelief: How American Law and Politics Trivialise Religious Devotion</em> (Basic Books, New York, 1993) 230.</span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong>RELATED POSTS:</strong><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html"><br />
 Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I</a><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part II" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-ii.html"><br />
 Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part II</a><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part III" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-iii.html"><br />
 Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part III</a><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part IV" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-iv.html"><br />
 Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part IV</a><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part V" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-v.html"><br />
 Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part V</a></p>
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		<title>Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part II</title>
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		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[God and Morality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jurists]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophy of Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Political Philosophy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Public Policy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion in Public Life]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rights and Freedoms]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Studies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christopher Eberle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Doctrine of Religious Restraint]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Freedom of Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Rawls]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jurisprudence]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Law Studies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lydia McGrew]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Matthew Flannagan]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Nicholas Wolterstorff]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Robert Audi]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[In my last post, Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I, I set out the doctrine of religious restraint and touched on some criticisms of it. In this post, I begin looking at and critiquing some of the key arguments in support of the doctrine of religious restraint. II         Arguments for the Doctrine of Religious [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>In my last post, </em><em><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html">Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I</a></em><em>, </em><em>I set out the doctrine of religious restraint and touched on some criticisms of it. In this post, I begin looking at and critiquing some of the key arguments in support of the doctrine of religious restraint.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em> </em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong>II         Arguments for the Doctrine of Religious Restraint</strong></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Of the reasons advanced in favour of the DRR most fall into one of two categories, an appeal to respect or arguments around the dangers of religion.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>A         Arguments from Respect</em><br />
 Two variants of the argument from respect are common in the literature; one appeals to the golden rule, that we should do to others what we would have them do to us, the other is that religious reasons are epistemically inaccessible.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>1          The golden rule</em><br />
 Audi advances a version of the golden rule;<a href="#_ftn1">[12]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Let us apply the do-unto-others rule to that case: one would not like having a different religious group, with which one deeply disagrees, press for its religiously preferred policies solely for religious reasons of its own, even if a good secular reason could be offered. … We are especially likely to disapprove of the dominance of religious motivation if the policy or law in question is backed by severe punishments.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Audi expands a hypothetical example offered by Kent Greenawalt<a href="#_ftn2">[13]</a> where people advocated voting for candidates on religious grounds because they would protect animals. <a href="#_ftn3">[14]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Suppose, however, that much money must be spent in enforcement and that many jobs will be lost through the changes in the food sector of the economy, so that human conduct is significantly restricted, even if meat consumption remains legal. Then one might ask the religious voters in question whether they would accept comparable restrictions of their conduct, as well as similar job losses or mandatory shifts, on the basis of coercive legislation protecting the dandelion as a sacred species.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Audi’s example imagines a “religious group, with which one deeply disagrees,” and gives the example of a belief in “the dandelion as a sacred species.” However, it is not just that one is being subjected to coercion on religious grounds, it is that the grounds are ones that we consider to be false. Lydia McGrew explains,<a href="#_ftn4">[15]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">A major reason, perhaps the only reason, why many of us would not want other people to impose their religious standards on us is that we think their religions <em>false</em>, not that there is something special about religion. …. So the Golden Rule argument turns out to have very little to tell us about religion, specifically. [<em>Emphasis added</em>]</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Imagine the situation where a false secular belief is being imposed; an environmentalist political party seeks to impose a policy that the aesthetic value of dandelions requires all adults within society to make the same substantial sacrifices Audi refers to. The policy could be reasonably objected to in spite of its grounds being secular. The same is true in reverse. Consider a policy most people strongly agree with being proposed on religious grounds; a Christian party advocates the abolition of female circumcision on the basis that the practice conflicts with its religious belief of the body being sacred. The policy could attract widespread support despite its grounds being religious.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">These examples suggest that the merits of the policy itself are what is important and not that the grounds used for its justification are religious or secular.<a href="#_ftn5">[16]</a> Audi disagrees;<a href="#_ftn6">[17]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Citizens in [a democracy] are naturally and permissibly resentful about coercion by religious factors&#8230;in a way in which they are not permissibly resentful concerning coercion by, for instance, considerations of public health. Even the moral errors of others are, for many, easier to abide as supports of coercion than religious convictions having the same result.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">McGrew responds by contrasting two cases; first she argues that, “A slave owner would not be permissibly resentful of the emancipation of his slaves on the grounds that their emancipation had come about as a result of religious arguments.”<a href="#_ftn7">[18]</a> Conversely she argues, a parent would “be permissibly resentful of the forcible administration to his perfectly healthy child of mind-altering drugs even if such a policy was argued for from secular premises.”<a href="#_ftn8">[19]</a> So it appears that<a href="#_ftn9">[20]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">How permissible (if one means, as Audi must mean, something like “understandable” or “reasonable”) one’s resentment of some law is depends on how reasonable the law is. It does not depend upon the origin of the considerations that brought about the law but rather upon whether the law is good or bad, merely annoying or outrageous, and so forth.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">That we should do to others what we would have them do to us does not just apply to the religious. While it is true that most people would strongly object to having to abide by religiously-grounded policies they reject as false, it is also true that they would strongly object to having to abide by secularly-grounded policies they reject as false. Consider a Muslim woman who believes it is her religious duty to wear a burqa. The passage of a law requiring her to remove her <em>burqa</em><em> </em>for her driver’s license photo would likely be offensive to her. A parallel golden rule argument would require us to oppose coercive laws drawn from secular grounds.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>2          Epistemic inaccessibility</em><br />
 Simplified, the most prominent type of argument offered in support of the DRR is that in a pluralistic society, coercive legislation cannot be justified unless the reasons advanced can be grounded in the reasonably-held principles and beliefs shared by all people. People disagree over which religious views, if any, are correct; therefore, any coercive laws justified on religious grounds cannot be legitimate because not all reasonable people accept religious premises. As such, religious reasons are epistemically inaccessible. Eberle sums this up, “the norm of respect imposes on each citizen an obligation to discipline herself in such a way that she resolutely refrains from supporting any coercive law for which she cannot provide the requisite public justification.”<a href="#_ftn10">[21]</a></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The paradigmatic and most influential version of this argument is that of John Rawls. Rawls argues that society <a href="#_ftn11">[22]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">is always marked by a diversity of opposing and irreconcilable religious, philosophical, and moral doctrines. Some of these are perfectly reasonable, and this diversity among reasonable doctrines political liberalism sees as the inevitable long-run result of the powers of human reason at work within the background of enduring free institutions.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Rawls uses the fact of diversity of comprehensive viewpoints, present in a pluralistic society, to argue for his version of restraint. Any justification drawn from such distinct grounds will always be reasonably rejected by someone.<a href="#_ftn12">[23]</a> Given this, some form of restraint is necessary.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Unlike most advocates of the standard view, Rawls’ version of the DRR does not only exclude religion but also other comprehensive secular doctrines that reasonable people disagree over. He notes,<a href="#_ftn13">[24]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Our exercise of political power is proper and hence justifiable only when it is exercised in accordance with a constitution the essentials of which all citizens may reasonably be expected to endorse in light of principles and ideals acceptable to them as reasonable and rational.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Note that the reason that Rawls excludes comprehensive views is that “[not] all citizens may reasonably be expected to endorse [such views] in light of principles and ideals acceptable to them as reasonable and rational.” Rawls argues that when comprehensive views are removed from consideration there remains sufficient common ground from which coercive laws can be justified to all reasonable people. Rawls refers to this “public reason,” which he explains as follows;<a href="#_ftn14">[25]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">We start by looking to the public culture itself as the shared fund of implicitly recognized basic ideas and principles. We hope to formulate these ideas and principles clearly enough to be combined into a political conception of justice congenial to our most firmly held convictions. We express this by saying that a political conception of justice, to be acceptable, must accord with our considered convictions, at all levels of generality, or in what I have called elsewhere, ‘reflective equilibrium.’</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Public reason should comprise<a href="#_ftn15">[26]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">presently accepted general beliefs and forms of reasoning found in common sense, and the methods and conclusions of science when these are not controversial … we are not to appeal to comprehensive religious and philosophical doctrines&#8211;to what we as individuals or members of associations see as the whole truth&#8211;nor to elaborate economic theories of general equilibrium, say, if these are in dispute.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Whilst the boundaries being drawn this way enables Rawls’ position to escape the charge of asymmetry, his critics and even many of those who also advocate some form of restraint on justificatory reasons claim that his position excludes too much.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em> </em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>(a)        Incoherence</em><br />
 Nicholas Wolterstorff identifies several problems; <a href="#_ftn16">[27]</a></p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">No matter what principles of justice a particular political theorist may propose, the reasonable thing for her to expect, given any plausible understanding whatsoever of ‘reasonable and rational,’ is <em>not</em> that all reasonable and rational citizens would accept those principles, but rather that <em>not all</em> of them would do so. It would be utterly <em>unreasonable</em> for her to expect all of them to accept them. It would be unreasonable of her even to expect all her reasonable and rational fellow theorists to accept them; the contested fate of Rawls’ own proposed principles of justice is illustrative. What is reasonable for her to expect is that her proposals will stir up controversy and dissent not only at the point of transition from the academy to general society, but within the academy.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">In short, there is no more hope that reasonable and rational citizens will come to agreement, in the way Rawls recommends, on principles of justice, than that they will come to agreement, in the foreseeable future, on some comprehensive philosophical or religious doctrine. It is odd of Rawls to have thought otherwise; [<em>Emphasis original</em>]</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The divisions in society over welfare, abortion, state funding of social projects, euthanasia, pornography, genetic modification of foods, climate change, capital punishment, Maori seats and so on seem very broad; in most cases no argument or reasons advanced for these issues are likely to be accepted by all reasonable people. That reasonable people will disagree over what constitutes public reason does, prima facie<em>,</em> seem plausible. If this is the case then Rawls’ position is incoherent.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Rawls argues that we have a moral obligation to reject any view that “[not] all citizens may reasonably be expected to endorse in light of principles and ideals acceptable to them as reasonable and rational.” Public reason will “alone give a reasonable public answer to all, or to nearly all, questions involving the constitutional essentials and basic questions of justice.”<a href="#_ftn17">[28]</a> However, as Wolterstorff pointed out, even the deliverances of public reason are such “that <em>not all</em> reasonable people will agree.” Wolterstorff’s reference to the lack of consensus on Rawls&#8217; own “principles of justice” supports this claim. In <em>A Theory of Justice</em> Rawls attempted to expound on his idea of public reason to develop principles of justice that a society could be ordered by.<a href="#_ftn18">[29]</a> The reception to <em>A Theory of Justice</em> was not a consensus in favour; present in the literature are a number of rejections, offered by reasonable people, on anything from the conclusions drawn, through to the methods used, to the principles themselves.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">If we have a moral obligation to reject any view that “[not] all citizens may reasonably be expected to endorse in light of principles and ideals acceptable to them as reasonable and rational” and principles drawn from public reason are themselves things that not all citizens may reasonably be expected to endorse then, by Rawls, we have a moral obligation to reject any principles drawn from public reason.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Matthew Flannagan agrees,<a href="#_ftn19">[30]</a></p>
<blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><p>Rawls rejects appeals to comprehensive doctrines because people can reasonably reject them and argues that there is a duty to not decide questions of basic justice this way. If this is true then we should reject appeals to public reason as well; in fact, we have a duty to not follow public reason.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>In my next post, <a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part III" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-iii.html">Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part III</a></em><em>, I will look at the objection that the argument from respect is too thin, that applied consistently the argument from respect excludes too much. I will conclude by looking at</em><em> Audi&#8217;s response to this.<br />
 </em></p>
<hr style="text-align: justify;" size="1" />
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><a href="#_ftnref1">[12]</a> Robert Audi “Liberal Democracy and the Place of Religion in Politics” in Nicholas Wolterstorff &amp; Robert Audi (eds) <em>Religion in the Public Square: The Place of Religious Convictions in Political Debate</em> (Rowman and Littlefield Publishers Inc, Lanham Md, 1997) 1-66, 30.<a href="#_ftnref2"><br />
 [13]</a> Kent Greenawalt <em>Private Consciences and Public Reasons</em> (Oxford University Press, New York, 1995) 67.<a href="#_ftnref3"><br />
 [14]</a> Audi, above n 12, 28.<a href="#_ftnref4"><br />
 [15]</a> Lydia McGrew “The Irrational Faith of the Naked   Public Square” (2008) 1 <a href="http://www.christendomreview.com/Volume001Issue001/index.html">The Christendom Review</a> (at 2 October 2009).<a href="#_ftnref5"><br />
 [16]</a> Wolterstorff makes the same point, above n 3, 106.<a href="#_ftnref6"><br />
 [17]</a> Audi, above n 12, 32.<a href="#_ftnref7"><br />
 [18]</a> McGrew, above n 15.<a href="#_ftnref8"><br />
 [19]</a> Ibid.<a href="#_ftnref9"><br />
 [20]</a> Ibid.<a href="#_ftnref10"><br />
 [21]</a> Christopher Eberle <em>Religious Convictions in Liberal Politics </em>(Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2002) 12.<a href="#_ftnref11"><br />
 [22]</a> Ibid 3-4.<a href="#_ftnref12"><br />
 [23]</a> The policy itself might be accepted as it may be able to be justified on grounds the person does accept, though these grounds are not immune from being reasonably rejected by other people. I am grateful to Glenn Peoples for the development of this point.<a href="#_ftnref13"><br />
 [24]</a> John Rawls <em>Political Liberalism </em>(Columbia University Press, New York, 1993) 217. Note: Rawls limits his support of a form of the DRR in the policy areas of “constitutional essentials and questions of basic justice.” Rawls’ critics argue that his position commits him to holding to his version of the DRR for all coercive legislation; see for example, Wolterstorff, above n 3, 106; Glenn Peoples <em>Religion in the Public Square: Liberal Political Philosophy and the Place of Religious Convictions</em> (PhD Thesis, University of Otago, 2007) 88; Matthew Flannagan <em>Is Historic Christian Opposition to Feticide Defensible in the 21<sup>st</sup> Century?</em> (PhD Thesis, University  of Otago, 2006) 200.<a href="#_ftnref14"><br />
 [25]</a> Ibid 8.<a href="#_ftnref15"><br />
 [26]</a> Ibid 224-225.<a href="#_ftnref16"><br />
 [27]</a> </span><span style="font-size: x-small;">Nicholas Wolterstorff “The Role of Religion in Decision and Discussion of Political Issues” in Nicholas Wolterstorff &amp; Robert Audi (eds) <em>Religion in the Public Square: The Place of Religious Convictions in Political Debate</em> (Rowman and Littlefield Publishers Inc, Lanham Md, 1997) 67-120,</span><span style="font-size: x-small;"> 99.<a href="#_ftnref17"><br />
 [28]</a> Rawls, above n 24, 225.<a href="#_ftnref18"><br />
 [29]</a> John Rawls <em>A Theory of Justice</em> (Harvard University Press, Cambridge MA, 1971).<a href="#_ftnref19"><br />
 [30]</a> Matthew Flannagan <em>Is Historic Christian Opposition to Feticide Defensible in the 21<sup>st</sup> Century?</em> (PhD Thesis, University  of Otago, 2006) 195.</span></p>
<p><strong>RELATED POSTS:</strong><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-i.html"><br />
 Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part I</a><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part II" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-ii.html"><br />
 </a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-ii.html"></a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-iii.html">Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part III</a><a title="Permanent Link to Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part IV" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-iv.html"><br />
 </a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-iv.html">Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part IV</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-v.html">Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part V</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/religious-restraint-and-public-policy-part-vi.html">Religious Restraint and Public Policy: Part VI</a></p>
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