<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/"
	>

<channel>
	<title>MandM &#187; Peter Cresswell</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/tag/peter-creswell/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz</link>
	<description>Philosophy of Religion, Ethics, Theology and Jurisprudence</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:08:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<language>en</language>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>Auckland Bloggers Drinks Tonight &#8211; Note New Venue</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/12/auckland-bloggers-drinks-tonight-note-new-venue.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=auckland-bloggers-drinks-tonight-note-new-venue</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/12/auckland-bloggers-drinks-tonight-note-new-venue.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Dec 2010 22:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggers Drinks]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cameron Slater]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Horse and Trap]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Whale Oil]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=4665</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The first Thursday of the month means Bloggers Drinks! The event for bloggers, blog trolls, blog groupies (bloupies) and blog readers. So come along tonight and see if you can talk as much nonsense as Peter Cresswell and Cameron Slater can. Past blogging celebrities in attendance include bloggers and blog readers from Annie Fox, Barnsley Bill, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;">The first Thursday of the month means Bloggers Drinks! The event for bloggers, blog trolls, blog groupies (bloupies) and blog readers. So come along tonight and see if you can talk as much nonsense as Peter Cresswell and Cameron Slater can.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Past blogging celebrities in attendance include bloggers and blog readers from Annie Fox, Barnsley Bill, Beretta, Bowalley Road, The Fairfacts Media Show, Stephen Franks, Fundy Post, Hard News, Island Life, Garfield Herrington, Bernard Hickey, Cactus Kate, Kiwiblog, MandM, No Minister, No Right Turn, Not PC, Roar Prawn, Lolly Scramble, SOLO, The Standard, Born on State Highway One, Whale Oil and WHOAR! … though several didn’t stay around too long.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Horse-and-Trap.gif"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-4667" style="margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 7px; margin-top: 3px; margin-bottom: 0px;" title="The Horse and Trap" src="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Horse-and-Trap-300x103.gif" alt="The Horse and Trap" width="240" height="82" /></a>We&#8217;ve decided to experiment with central venues &#8211; so take note of the venue! <a href="http://www.horseandtrap.co.nz/" target="_blank">The Horse and Trap</a> is just down the road from Galbraiths and has Thirsty Thursday specials!</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px; text-align: justify;">What: Auckland Bloggers Drinks <br />
 When: Thursday 2 December, from 6.30pm <br />
 Where: Horse and Trap, 3 Enfield St, Mt Eden, Auckland<br />
 Who for: Bloggers, blog readers, blog trolls<br />
 What for: The talking of nonsense and telling of lies</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">There is a rumour that Blondie from <a href="http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/" target="_blank">WhaleOil</a> will turn up with an entire home made chocolate caramel slice in her handbag&#8230; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/login.php" target="_blank">RSVP on Facebook</a>, invite your friends or just turn up on your own.</p>
<div class="zemanta-pixie" style="margin-top: 10px; height: 15px; text-align: justify;"><img class="zemanta-pixie-img" style="border: none; float: right;" src="http://img.zemanta.com/pixy.gif?x-id=c0503ec5-da90-49d7-925a-70fb18f4f1df" alt="" /></div>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/12/auckland-bloggers-drinks-tonight-note-new-venue.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>7</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>The Theology of the Declaration of Independence</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/the-theology-of-the-declaration-of-independence.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=the-theology-of-the-declaration-of-independence</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/the-theology-of-the-declaration-of-independence.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jul 2010 04:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[International Politics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion in Public Life]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Role of the State]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bill Vallicella]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Classical Liberalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Consenting Adults]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[David Farrar]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Declaration of Independence]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Divine Command Theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Faith and Reason]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Liberty]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religious History]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2009/07/the-theology-of-the-declaration-of-independence/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I write this it is just beginning to be the 4th of July in the United States now, though its been 4th July for some time here in New Zealand. The 4th of July is, of course, Independence Day. Typically in New Zealand, those members of the secular blogosphere, who consider themselves to be [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;">As I write this it is just beginning to be the 4th of July in the United States now, though its been 4th July for some time here in New Zealand.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The 4th of July is, of course, Independence Day. Typically in New Zealand, those members of the secular blogosphere, who consider themselves to be classical liberals, have an annual rant on the 4th of July about the <a href="http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html">Declaration of Independence</a>, praising the philosophy expounded in this document.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/declarationofindependence.jpg"><img class="alignright size-medium wp-image-3225" title="Declaration of Independence" src="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/declarationofindependence-252x300.jpg" alt="Declaration of Independence" width="215" height="272" /></a>Not PC&#8217;s Peter Cresswell, for example, states in <a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2010/07/happy-july-4th.html">Happy July 4th!</a> that “with the exception of just a few words, the words could hardly be bettered today;” the declaration is, “A wonderful, wonderful anthem to freedom that rings down through the years.&#8221;  He bemoans, &#8220;if only the real meaning of those words could be heard and understood.”</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">A few years ago Kiwiblog&#8217;s David Farrar <a href="http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2005/07/declaration_of_independence.html">made similar claims</a>, he stated he would often “marvel at those marvelous words, written in the heat of oppression…Marvelous, absolutely marvelous.”</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">I agree. I would simply point out to my secular, liberal, country-men what the words in this document actually say, and some of the philosophical ideas they expound.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">First, the declaration refers to God; it does so four times. <a href="http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/">Maverick Philosopher</a> has an excellent analysis of the theological content;</p>
<blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><p>In the initial paragraph, we find the phrase “&#8230;Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God&#8230;.” This phrase rules out pantheism: God is distinct from Nature. In the second paragraph, there is the phrase, “&#8230;endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights&#8230;.” Putting these two references together, we may infer that the God being referred to is not merely a deistic initiator of the temporally first segment of the physical universe, but a being involved in the creation of the human race. For if God endowed human beings with rights, this endowment had to occur at the time of the creation of human beings, which of course occurred later than the beginning of the physical universe. In traditional jargon, God is a creator continuans rather than a mere creator originans. He is not a mere cosmic starter-upper, but a being who is continuously involved in maintaining the universe in existence.</p>
<p>…</p>
<p>The other two references are in the final paragraph. There we find the phrase, “&#8230;Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions&#8230;.” near the beginning of the paragraph, and near the end, “&#8230;a firm Reliance on the Protection of divine Providence&#8230;.” Now if God is the Supreme Judge, then he is more than a mere metaphysical cause responsible for the universe’s beginning to exist; he is also the supreme moral arbiter. And since he endows human beings with rights, as opposed to being merely a judge of rights antecedently possessed, then it seems we may infer that God is the source of moral distinctions (as opposed to a mere judge of them).</p>
<p>The reference to divine providence is further evidence that the conception of God in the Declaration is non-deistic. For if God provides and protects, then God has an ongoing involvement with the world and its inhabitants such as would be ruled out by a deistic view. It should also be obvious that talk of providence (from the Latin, pro-videre) implies divine foreknowledge which implies intelligence and perhaps omniscience on the part of the deity. The God of the Declaration is not a blind metaphysical cause posited to explain why the universe began to exist, but a being with such attributes as moral goodness and intelligence…. So if by &#8216;deism&#8217; is meant the doctrine that God is a mere metaphysical cause of the universe&#8217;s beginning to exist who is thereafter uninvolved in its continuing to exist, then the God of the Declaration is non-deistic.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Second, the declaration claims that belief in a creator is self-evident; that is, it is a properly basic belief, which is rationally acceptable to hold in the absence of any proof.</p>
<blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><p>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Third, the declaration makes political pronouncements about public policy on the basis of these theological claims and expects these pronouncements to be taken seriously.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Fourth, the declaration says that various rights, such as the right to life and liberty, are unalienable. That is, a person cannot alienate one’s life or freedom as they can legally alienate a piece of property. You can’t take my property if I do not consent to you having it but if I do consent, you can take it; property is alienable, life and liberty are not. The argument of the declaration reflects John Locke’s argument in the Second Treatise of Civil Government;</p>
<blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><p>To understand political power right, and derive it from its original, we must consider, what state all men are naturally in, and that is, a state of perfect freedom to order their actions, and dispose of their possessions and persons, as they think fit, within the bounds of the law of nature, without asking leave, or depending upon the will of any other man.[1]</p>
<p>…</p>
<p>But though this be a state of liberty, yet it is not a state of licence: though man in that state have an uncontroulable liberty to dispose of his person or possessions, yet he has not liberty to destroy himself, or so much as any creature in his possession, but where some nobler use than its bare preservation calls for it. The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions: for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent, and infinitely wise maker; all the servants of one sovereign master, sent into the world by his order, and about his business; they are his property, whose workmanship they are, made to last during his, not one another&#8217;s pleasure[2]</p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
<p>This freedom from absolute, arbitrary power, is so necessary to, and closely joined with a man&#8217;s preservation, that he cannot part with it, but by what forfeits his preservation and life together: for a man, not having the power of his own life, cannot, by compact, or his own consent, enslave himself to any one, nor put himself under the absolute, arbitrary power of another, to take away his life, when he pleases. No body can give more power than he has himself; and he that cannot take away his own life, cannot give another power over it.[3]</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The point here is that because your right to life and liberty are from God, no one can legitimately enslave or kill you, even if you consent to it. This was not a mere incidental addendum idea, it was central to Lockean political philosophy, which maintained (as the declaration does) that the government derives its powers from the consent of the governed. If a person can consent to be killed or enslaved then they can consent to the government enslaving them also to having the arbitrary power to kill them and hence tyranny can be legitimate. The reason tyranny is illegitimate is because, “No body can give more power than he has himself; and he that cannot take away his own life, cannot give another power over it.”</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The declaration then makes a metaphysical claim: God exists. It makes an epistemological claim about faith and reason: that belief in God is rational independent of proof. It makes an implicit claim of political philosophy: religion is not a private thing that should not influence public life but rather, theological claims <em>should</em> influence public life. Finally it makes a moral claim; that consenting adults do not have a right to do whatever they like with their own bodies, rather there are &#8220;Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God&#8221; that bind all human beings, that they are compelled to follow even if all parties consent otherwise. Governments are legitimate to the extent in which they respect these laws.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">I agree with PC, it is hard to improve on this philosophy; I have defended it in several places on this blog.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Ironically, however, the militant secular liberals in NZ who parrot the declaration seem committed to attacking these ideas and rejecting them on every point. They argue that belief in God is irrational because it cannot be empirically proven, they claim that the public square should be secular, that religion should be private and not influence public policy and they argue that liberty means consenting adults can do whatever they like with their own bodies and lives. Far from being unalienable, a person’s life and freedom is his property to alienate as that person sees fit.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">It is also hard to disagree with PC’s sentiments that the declaration is “A wonderful, wonderful anthem to freedom that rings down through the years. If only the real meaning of those words could be heard and understood.” &#8220;Indeed, if only.&#8221;</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 85%;">[1]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> John Locke <em>Second Treatise of Civil Government</em> Section II 4.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[2]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Ibid II6.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[3]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Ibid IV 23</span>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/the-theology-of-the-declaration-of-independence.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>27</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Science and Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Aristotle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dark Ages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Enlightenment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Founding Fathers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[James Valliant]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Libertarianism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Liberty]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mark Murphy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Nicholas Wolterstorff]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Regine Pernoud]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rodney Stark]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SOLO]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[W.E.H. Lecky]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=2821</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Recently Peter Cresswell published a guest post by James Valliant, which originally appeared on SOLO. In Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I, I addressed Valliant&#8217;s claims that science and freedom of religion were unanimously opposed by Christians and the success of science and freedom of religion in Europe was solely [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>Recently Peter Cresswell published <a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2010/02/guest-post-gimme-that-old-time-religion.html">a guest post by James Valliant</a>, which originally appeared on <a href="http://www.solopassion.com/node/7338">SOLO</a>. In <a title="Permanent Link to Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html">Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I</a>, I addressed Valliant&#8217;s claims that science and freedom of religion were unanimously opposed by Christians and the success of science and freedom of religion in Europe was solely due to the influence of pagan ideas which the church sought to suppress. Then in <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html">The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers</a>, I further documented how Enlightenment defences of freedom of religion were grounded in earlier theological writings. Here I will continue my critique of Valliant&#8217;s article.<br />
 </em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">3. Valliant contends that it is absurd to suggest that “the US declaration of independence is based on Judeo-Christian ideas.” His reasons, however, are once again based on ignorance of Christian intellectual history.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">First he ridicules the idea of Christian influence, “We are asked to believe that it took a mere 1,776 years of reading that darned Bible before any of those great and learned Christian scholars figured out its true political implications!” Valliant seems blissfully unaware that many ideas expressed in the declaration were expressed by Christian writers sometimes hundreds of years <em>prior</em> to 1776.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The claim that there is a creator and that this is self-evident, are ideas that go back centuries in Christian theology. Moreover, the contention that people are created equal is found in the book of Job and would not have been contested by many medieval or patristic theologians.  Mark Murphy has noted that the idea of ‘consent of the governed’ was also accepted in political thought of the Middle Ages.<a href="#_ftn1">[1]</a> In fact, a form of ‘consent of the governed’ was actually a key feature of feudalism; under this system the monarch was elected or chosen by the land owners and could be deposed by the land owners.<a href="#_ftn2">[2]</a> Nicholas Wolterstorff has documented that the notion of natural rights had its origins in medieval canon law and theological reflections of the middle ages.<a href="#_ftn3">[3]</a> Many of the ideas expressed in the declaration were defended centuries earlier by Calvinist tracts such as <em>Lex Rex</em> and <em>Vindicae Contra Tyrannos</em>. In fact, medieval theologians criticised absolute monarchy, debated the question of just revolutions and so on resulting in the birth of the Magna Carta.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The declaration simply repeats <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/the-theology-of-the-declaration-of-independence.html">the argument for liberty</a>, put forward by John Locke in his <em>Two Treatise of Civil Government</em>. Locke’s argument occurred in the context of an exegetical debate with Robert Filmer about whether or not the bible supported absolute monarchy. Locke’s main argument was that because human beings are created by God, they have an inalienable right to life and liberty and so could not licitly sell themselves or give another person arbitrary or total power over them. In making this argument, Locke actually appropriated an ancient rabbinical argument against slavery which was alluded to by the Apostle Paul (1 Cor 7:23) and is implicit in the Torah (Lev 25: 42). Paul’s appropriation of this argument was the basis for the Christian abolition of slavery in the early Middle Ages. Valliant’s ignorance about what Christians did not support or write about prior to 1776 does not mean that these texts do not exist.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant continues with the claim that Paul told Christians “to just ‘<em>obey’ the governmental</em> ‘<em>authorities’</em> <em>placed over us</em>, because God has appointed them, by St. Paul himself, who likely wrote during the reign of the monster Nero.” This again is a caricature, <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/09/sunday-study-r-13-romans-revelations-and-the-state.html">as I have pointed out elsewhere</a>, the context (which Valliant ignores) qualifies Paul’s command. Moreover, the passage Valliant cites was written during the early part of Nero’s reign when Nero was strongly influenced by Seneca the Younger and Barrus and his rule was widely considered to be competent and relatively enlightened. When Nero later degenerated into a monster the scripture, rather scathingly, describes <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/sunday-study-666-the-number-of-the-beast.html">Nero as a satanic beast</a> whom Christians are required to <em>resist</em> – not obey!</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant also seems blithely unaware of the fact that Paul wrote as a prisoner of Rome and was himself executed by Nero for refusing to pay homage to Nero (as were many other Christians). His picture then of Paul as a proponent of advocating unqualified obedience to Nero is simply inaccurate.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">4. Valliant similarly quotes Paul’s admonition to slaves to obey their masters in contrast to the US Framers who “thought slavery was evil, too, and it was this belief that provided the basis (e.g., see the Gettysburg Address) for later abolishing it” as evidence that abolitionist ideas originate from ancient Greek/Aristotelian thought and not Christian theology. Apart from the fact that Jefferson was himself a slave owner, Valliant’s understanding is extremely selective.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">First, opposition to slavery in various forms has a long history in Christian thought and practice. It predates the American Founding by hundreds, maybe, thousands of years. Early Christians advocated emancipating slaves, a practice exhorted by several leading theologians and early church councils.  W.E.H. Lecky contends that early Christian saints such as Melania, Ovidius, Chromatius, and Hermes, between them liberated almost 20,000 slaves.<a href="#_ftn4">[4]</a> Later, in 315, Constantine made it a capital offence to steal a child and bring it up as a slave. Justinian, in the 6<sup>th</sup> century, abolished earlier roman laws prohibiting the freeing of slaves. Similarly St Bathilde, a runaway slave who became the wife of King Clovis II in the 9<sup>th</sup> century, campaigned against the slave trade as did other notables, St Patrick in the 5<sup>th</sup> century, St Anskar in the 9<sup>th</sup> century and St Wulfstan, St Anselm in the 11<sup>th</sup> century. Rodney Stark notes that Christian opposition to slavery in the lead to its effective abolition within in Europe during the Middle Ages. Stark goes on to document that Pope Eugene IV (1431-1447), Pope Pius II (1458-1464), Pope Sixtus IV (1471-1484), Pope Paul III (1534-1549), Pope Urban VIII (1623-1644) issued papal bulls against slavery. In addition, the Roman Inquisition condemned slavery on 20 March 1686.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">All of the above occurred hundreds of years <em>prior </em>to the US Founding Fathers.<a href="#_ftn5">[5]</a> In fact, evangelical Christians, such as William Wilberforce, had brought about the abolition of slavery peacefully in the British several decades before the US fought a civil war over it. Moreover, Stark’s analysis shows that the earliest abolitionist tracts within the US were whttp://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-admin/post-new.phpritten by Puritans &#8211; actually by one of the judges at the Salem witch trials. The abolitionist movements in the US were overwhelmingly <em>religious in orientation</em>.<a href="#_ftn6">[6]</a> The suggestion then that opposition to slavery was without Christian precedent and was a novel idea proposed by the revival of pre-Christian ideas in the Enlightenment is implausible. The issue of slavery is a particularly bad example to substantiate Valliant’s thesis given that in the pre-Christian pagan world slavery was widely practiced and accepted. In fact Aristotle, Valliant’s pre-Christian Greek hero, famously <em>defended</em> slavery (in <em>three</em> chapters no less) contending the enslavement of other races was natural.<a href="#_ftn7">[7]</a></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant’s reading of scripture is also questionable. While it is true that Paul exhorted slaves to obey their masters, this by itself does not entail support for slavery anymore than my paying my taxes constitutes my agreement with taxation laws. Moreover, Valliant ignores the numerous other things both the scriptures and Paul stated about slavery, which contradict and condemn <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/06/sunday-study-slavery-john-locke-and-the-bible.html">the practice of slavery that existed in America</a>. In fact, the enlightenment philosopher who most influenced the US, John Locke, appealed to <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/06/sunday-study-slavery-john-locke-and-the-bible.html">these very texts</a> both explicitly and implicitly, to condemn slavery. Once again, Valliant ignores crucial facts of Christian intellectual history to come to his stereotypical conclusions.</p>
<hr style="text-align: justify;" size="1" />
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><a href="#_ftnref1">[1]</a> Mark Murphy &#8220;Natural Law, Consent, and Political Obligation&#8221; <em>Social Philosophy &amp; Policy</em> 18 (2001) 70-92.<a href="#_ftnref2"><br />
 [2]</a> Regine Pernoud,  <em>Those Terrible Middle Ages : Debunking the Myths</em> (San Francisco: Ignatius Press,  2000) 128-129.<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref3">[3]</a> Nicolas Wolterstorff  <em>Justice Rights and Wrongs</em> (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2008).<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref4">[4]</a> W.E.H. Lecky <em>History of European Morals: From Augustus to Charlemagne</em> (New York: D. Appleton, 1921) 2:69.<a href="#_ftnref5"><br />
 [5]</a> Rodney Stark <em>For the Glory of God: How Monotheism led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the end of Slavery</em> (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2003).<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref6">[6]</a> Ibid.<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref7">[7]</a> Aristotle <em>The Politics</em> Bk I iii, iv, v.</span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;">RELATED POSTS:<br />
 </span></span></strong><a title="Permanent Link to Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html">Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html">The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to The Theology of the Declaration of Independence" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/the-theology-of-the-declaration-of-independence.html">The Theology of the Declaration of Independence</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html"></a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html">The “Dark Ages” and Other Propaganda</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Guest Post: Dan Brown’s History of Science" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/10/guest-post-dan-brown%e2%80%99s-history-of-science.html">Guest Post: James Hannam on Dan Brown’s History of Science</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Sunday Study: Slavery, John Locke and the Bible" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/06/sunday-study-slavery-john-locke-and-the-bible.html">Slavery, John Locke and the Bible</a><br />
<a title="Permanent Link to Sunday Study: 666 The Number of the Beast" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/sunday-study-666-the-number-of-the-beast.html">666 The Number of the Beast</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Sunday Study R 13: Romans, Revelations and the Role of the State" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/09/sunday-study-r-13-romans-revelations-and-the-state.html">R 13: Romans, Revelations and the Role of the State</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Science and Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dark Ages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[David Lindberg]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Enlightenment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Founding Fathers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[James Hannam]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[James Valliant]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Libertarianism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Liberty]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Regine Pernoud]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SOLO]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=2784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Recently Peter Cresswell published a guest post by James Valliant, which originally appeared on SOLO. The following series is a critique of this piece. Valliant’s basic thesis is that, Both science and freedom came about among European Christians despite the best efforts of pious Christians to prevent their development, and only on a foundation of [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>Recently Peter Cresswell published <a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2010/02/guest-post-gimme-that-old-time-religion.html">a guest post by James Valliant</a>, which originally appeared on <a href="http://www.solopassion.com/node/7338">SOLO</a>. The following series is a critique of this piece.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant’s basic thesis is that,</p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Both science and freedom came about among European Christians <em>despite</em> the best efforts of pious Christians to prevent their development, and only on a foundation of pagan, pre-Christian ideas, and with conservative Christians fighting each and every step of the way.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Like other Randian’s he <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html">erroneously thinks of Aristotle’s philosophy as a paradigm of the pagan ideas</a> in question. Valliant’s post contains numerous errors. His <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/sunday-study-joshua-and-the-genocide-of-the-canaanites-part-i.html">uncritical acceptance of literal</a> <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/sunday-study-joshua-and-the-genocide-of-the-canaanites-part-ii.html">reading of Genocide passages</a>, his claim that the Bible teaches sex is bad, his assertion that it teaches <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html">people will be tortured forever for not believing in Christ</a> and numerous other things means there are far to many errors for me to address in a short post and this one is long enough as it is! Here I will focus on those errors most relevant to his main thesis. [I have inserted hyperlinks on the less relevant errors where I have previously blogged on the issue - also see the related posts at the end.]</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">1. Valliant appears to accept the now discredited <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis">conflict thesis</a>. He states that the Church “imprisoned scientists” for challenging its authority and that that “Western science only got going again following the rediscovery of pre-Christian Greek ideas, starting with Aristotle&#8217;s.” Valliant cites Copernicus as an example, claiming that he “got his ideas about the earth and the sun from an ancient, pagan source, one that he suppressed upon publication.” This is all questionable at best, as <a href="http://www.thenile.co.nz/books/James-Hannam/Gods-Philosophers/9781848310704/"></a><a href="http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/">James Hannam’s</a> recent study shows, “During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church actively supported a great deal of science.” Hannam goes on to document that, contrary to popular belief, the Church, “never supported the idea that the earth was flat, never banned human dissection, never banned zero and certainly never burnt anyone at the stake for scientific ideas.” The one exception to this, he notes, is the case of Galileo in the 17<sup>th</sup> century, who was placed under house arrest for teaching Copernican cosmology as true (as opposed to a hypothesis).<a href="#_ftn1">[1]</a> The Catholic Church’s opposition to Copernicus, of course, is the sole case Valliant alludes to but a single case does not substantiate a trend.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant’s allusion to the views of Copernicus is similarly questionable. Copernicus’ heliocentric cosmology constituted a<em> rejection</em> of the standard Aristotelian cosmology accepted by the ancient Greeks. Stillman Drake notes that Galileo’s strongest opponents were supporters of Aristotle and it was more his calling into question Aristotle and the pressure by Aristotelians to silence him, that lead to his condemnation from the church than merely interpreting a psalm figuratively.<a href="#_ftn2">[2]</a> Nor is it correct to suggest that Copernicus got his “ideas about the earth” from suppressed Greek scientists. In fact, the thesis that the earth moves had already been suggested by 14th century theologians   Jean Buridan and Nicole d&#8217;Oresme and had been openly discussed in medieval universities for centuries <em>prior </em>to Copernicus. Edward Grant notes the positions of Buridan and d&#8217;Oresme were based in part on Theological <em>condemnations</em> of Aristotelian Philosophy that had occurred in the 13 century.<a href="#_ftn3">[3]</a> The Copernican position then was already being debated openly in theological circles <em>before </em>Copernicus and was <em>a repudiation </em>of Greek cosmology motivated, in part, by theological concerns about God’s sovereignty.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">2. Valliant makes the historical claim that “The burning of thousands and thousands at the stake for no reason <em>other than</em> their heretical faith, the torturing of thousands and thousands more in order to get them to confess to any deviation from the Bible … is all a matter of historical record.” He asks,</p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">If Christians, in the name of their faith, did horrible things in the more remote past, had they simply <em>misunderstood</em> the Bible that they were poring over in such detail and with such devotion? Did they <em>finally</em> get clear on the meaning of their true doctrine only after the better part of two millennia?. No, it was the horrible institution of <em>Christian</em> persecution, century after century, which inspired sensitive minds to first consider the idea of freedom of conscience, and, again, only with a good deal of philosophical help from those ancient, pagan sources, from Aristotle to Cicero.” [<em>Emphasis added</em>]</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant appears to think that religious persecution as existed in the Inquisition was due to Christian theology and that the notion of freedom of conscience was the result of pagan ideas.  The facts, however, are not so simple. Valliant’s argument contains several false assumptions.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">First, Valliant is mistaken that Christians for the better part of two millennia both engaged in and supported the activities he refers too. In fact, for the first four hundred years of Christian history, the Church fathers supported and defended a right to freedom of conscience; it was only in the 5th century, due to the influence of Augustine, that suppression of heresy was supported. Even in this instance there was not unanimity. Many theologians such as Ambrose and Pope Siricius protested heresy executions in the late Roman Empire.  Forced baptisms did occur under Charlemagne in the 8<sup>th</sup> century but were criticised by leading theologians of the time such as Alcurin.  From Charlemagne till the 12th century, some 400 years, there were no inquisitions.<a href="#_ftn4">[4]</a> The Inquisition arose in Western Europe in the 12th century in response to a particular political crisis.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Interestingly both Canon Law and Medieval Theology developed a notion of freedom of conscience in the Middle Ages, drawing from earlier patristic sources and exegesis of Paul’s comments on freedom of conscience in Romans 14.<a href="#_ftn5">[5]</a> In fact, the defences of religious tolerance, proposed by enlightenment thinkers such as John Locke, Pierre Bayle and James Madison are often simply repetitions of the arguments of early Christian theologians such as Lactantius and Tertullian, which had been known to Christian theologians for over a thousand years.  These facts also show that is mistaken to suggest defences of freedom of conscience were only developed <em>after</em> hundreds of years of Christian persecution.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Second, Valliant’s attempt to equate religious tolerance with pagan antiquity is equally dubious. The pre-Christian Athenian democracy Valliant champions executed Socrates for heresy, around 400 years before Christ. Plato and Aristotle also experienced periods of exile from Athens &#8211; Aristotle fled precisely to avoid sharing Socrates fate. Greek Philosophers, including Plato, defended censorship of religious books and execution of those who denied the existence of the gods. For 300 years prior to the Christianisation of Europe the roman state persecuted and executed Christian believers. Eusebius records that thousands of men, women and children &#8211; sometimes whole towns &#8211; were martyred by Rome for their beliefs.<a href="#_ftn6">[6]</a> David Lindberg sums the evidence up,</p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Intolerance is and was (and is) a widely cultivated trait, shared about equally by pagans and Christians. Moreover, each party was capable of employing coercive measures when it gained the political power to do so; Christians, in fact appear to have done so less often than Pagans.<a href="#_ftn7">[7]</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant’s contention that “freedom” was based on “pre-Christian” Aristotelian ideas “with conservative Christians fighting each and every step of the way” also ignores the obvious fact that the Inquisition came into Europe around <em>the same time</em> as the rise of Aristotelianism and was in fact defended and carried out by the Dominican order &#8211; the <em>very same order</em> that promoted and defended Aristotle in European universities. The facts, therefore, do not fit the generalised picture Valliant paints.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Third, Valliant’s comments appear to assume that the torture and execution of heretics was justified solely by an appeal to the Bible. However, nowhere does the Bible mention executing or torturing heretics nor was it typically taken to teach this. Christopher Eberle and Terence Cuneo note that suppression of heresy was frequently punished, not on religious grounds <em>per se,</em> but on broader secular grounds,</p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Religious believers have employed coercive power to violate the right to religious freedom, they themselves rarely have done so in a way that violates the [Doctrine of Religious Restraint] … when such rights have been violated, the justifications offered, even by religious believers, appeal to alleged requirements for social order, such as the need for uniformity of belief on basic normative issues. One theological apologist for religious repression, for example, writes this: ‘The king punishes heretics as enemies, as extremely wicked rebels, who endanger the peace of the kingdom, which cannot be maintained without the unity of the faith. That is why they are burnt in Spain’. <a href="#_ftn8">[8]</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Régine Pernoud points out that reason heretics were burnt or tortured is because the 12th century saw the revival of <em>Roman law</em> which allowed torture to gain a confession and punish treason with burning.<a href="#_ftn9">[9]</a> Hence contrary to Valliant, the torture and burning of heretics had as much to do with ancient pagan roman legal customs as it did with biblical exegesis.  In fact, the evidence suggests that unlike secular courts, the Inquisition used torture sparingly, more moderately and rarely executed those who came before it, suggesting that it in fact moderated and softened the harshness of roman practice.<a href="#_ftn10">[10]</a></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">In my next post in this series, <a title="Permanent Link to Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html">Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II</a>, I address Valliant&#8217;s claims that the writers of the Declaration of Independence were not influenced by Christianity and his claims around freedom and slavery.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">In the meantime see this update: <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html">The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers</a></p>
<hr style="text-align: justify;" size="1" />
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><a href="#_ftnref1">[1]</a> James Hannam <em>God’s Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science </em>(London: Icon books, 2009) 2-3.<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref2">[2]</a> Stillman Drake <em>Galileo</em> (Oxford: Oxford  University Press, 1996).<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref3">[3]</a> Edward Grant “Science and Theology in the Middle Ages” in David C Linberg and Ronald L Numbers eds <em>God and Nature: Historical Essays on the Encounter between Religion and Science</em> (Berkley: University of California Press, 1986) 49-75.<a href="#_ftnref4"><br />
 [4]</a> Regine Pernoud <em>Those Terrible Middle Ages: Debunking the Myths</em> (San Francisco: Ignatius Press,  2000) 120.<a href="#_ftnref5"><br />
 [5]</a> See Joseph Lecler <em>Toleration and the Reformation</em> trans. by TL Weslow (New York: Association Press, 1960).<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref6">[6]</a> Eusebius <em>Ecclesiastical History.<br />
 </em><a href="#_ftnref7">[7]</a> David Lindberg “Science and the Early Church” in David C Linberg and Ronald L Numbers eds <em>God and Nature: Historical Essays on the Encounter between Religion and Science</em> (Berkley: University of California Press, 1986) 22.<a href="#_ftnref8"><br />
 [8]</a> Christopher Eberle and Terence Cuneo “<a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-politics/">Religion and Political Theory</a>” (2008) Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.<a href="#_ftnref9"><br />
 [9]</a> Pernoud, above n 4, 128-129.<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref10">[10]</a> See, for example, Edward Peters <em>Inquisition</em> (London: Collier Macmillan, 1981); also Henry Kamen <em>The Spanish Inquisition: A Revisionist History </em>(New Haven Conn: Yale University Press, 1998).</span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;">RELATED POSTS:</span></span></strong><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html">Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II<br />
</a> <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html">The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html">The “Dark Ages” and Other Propaganda</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/sunday-study-joshua-and-the-genocide-of-the-canaanites-part-i.html">Sunday Study: Joshua and the Genocide of the Canaanites Part I</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/sunday-study-joshua-and-the-genocide-of-the-canaanites-part-ii.html">Sunday Study: Joshua and the Genocide of the Canaanites Part II</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html">William Lane Craig, Raymond Bradley and the Problem of Hell. Part Two</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Guest Post: Dan Brown’s History of Science" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/10/guest-post-dan-brown%e2%80%99s-history-of-science.html">Guest Post: James Hannam on Dan Brown’s History of Science</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>14</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>This one&#8217;s for Anna Woolf</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/this-ones-for-anna-woolf.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=this-ones-for-anna-woolf</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/this-ones-for-anna-woolf.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Announcements]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Annie Fox]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=2030</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell has an update on blogger Anna Woolf&#8216;s battle with cancer which is very near the end. We met Anna on my and her birthday in April this year at bloggers drinks and have enjoyed her company and shared laughs and swapped pain meds at each bloggers drinks since. We have not known her [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;"><a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2009/12/anna-woolf-aka-annie-fox.html">Peter Cresswell has an update</a> on blogger <a href="http://ilt-awoolfie.blogspot.com/">Anna Woolf</a>&#8216;s battle with cancer which is very near the end. We met Anna on my and her birthday in April this year at bloggers drinks and have enjoyed her company and shared laughs and swapped pain meds at each bloggers drinks since.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">We have not known her that long but we have come to know an incredibly warm, funny, brave and courageous person with a heart of gold and it with deep sadness that we share this news. Our love and prayers go out to Anna, her sister Maria and her family and friends.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">You can leave a comment at the link to NotPC which will be read to Anna. <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/auckland-bloggers-drinks-this-thursday-2.html">This week&#8217;s bloggers drinks have now been moved to The Cavalier</a>, which is over the road from the hospice Anna is in, with the hope that those who wish to can pop over the road and say goodbye.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/this-ones-for-anna-woolf.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Auckland Bloggers Drinks Feat. Pamela Anderson and John Key &#8211; This Thursday!</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/09/auckland-bloggers-drinks-feat-pamela-anderson-and-john-key-this-thursday.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=auckland-bloggers-drinks-feat-pamela-anderson-and-john-key-this-thursday</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/09/auckland-bloggers-drinks-feat-pamela-anderson-and-john-key-this-thursday.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 03:06:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers Drinks]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Humour]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Anna Woolf]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Key]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Pamela Anderson]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=1567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Following on from the success of last week&#8217;s packed out impromptu Auckland Bloggers drinks featuring blogging celebrity David Farrar, Peter Cresswell and I have decided that we should feature celebrity guests more often. This week Pamela Anderson is in Auckland for Fashion Week and John Key is back from New York, fresh from his success [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;">Following on from the success of last week&#8217;s packed out <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/09/auckland-bloggers-drinks-feat-david-farrar-this-thursday.html">impromptu Auckland Bloggers drinks</a> featuring <a href="http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/09/auckland_blogger_drinks-2.html">blogging celebrity David Farrar</a>, Peter Cresswell and I have decided that we should feature  celebrity guests more often.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-1608" style="border: 1px solid black; margin: 4px 8px 0px 0px;" title="Anna Woolf" src="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/AnnaWoolfPam1-220x300.jpg" alt="Anna Woolf" width="220" height="300" />This week Pamela Anderson is in Auckland for Fashion Week and John Key is back from New York, fresh from his success as New Zealand&#8217;s newest comedian to appear on Letterman, so we invited them both to the <a href="http://ilt-awoolfie.blogspot.com/2009/03/b3-bloggers-bar-bash.html">Auckland Bloggers Bar Bash</a>.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">They <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">refused to take our calls</span> are yet to confirm but  in the unlikely event that neither will make it, and as Pamela is more woman than most, both <a href="http://ilt-awoolfie.blogspot.com/">Anna Woolf</a> and myself will be appearing in her place and <a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/">Peter Cresswell</a> will be standing in for John Key.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><img class="alignright size-medium wp-image-1605" style="border: 1px solid black; margin: 4px 0px 3px 7px;" title="Madeleine Flannagan" src="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/MadeleinePam3-225x300.jpg" alt="Madeleine Flannagan standing in for Pamela Anderson" width="183" height="243" />Open to anyone who happens to be in Auckland. Regular blogger attendees include those from Annie Fox, Not PC, Interest.co.nz, Lolly Scramble, State Highway One and MandM. Others have been known to stop by, such as David Farrar, Whaleoil, No Minister, Roar Prawn and Fran O&#8217;Sullivan so don&#8217;t be shy.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong> What:</strong> Auckland Bloggers Drinks &#8211; a social gathering of bloggers and bloupies (those who read, comment on and hang out with bloggers)<strong><br />
 When:</strong> Thursday 1 October from 6.30pm<strong><br />
 Where:</strong> Galbraiths, 2 Mt Eden Road, Mt Eden, Auckland</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-1570" style="border: 1px solid black;" title="Peter Cresswell" src="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/PeterCresswellKey.jpg" alt="Peter Cresswell standing in for John Key" width="354" height="261" /></p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/09/auckland-bloggers-drinks-feat-pamela-anderson-and-john-key-this-thursday.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>7</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Is Abortion Liberal? Part 2</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/10/is-abortion-liberal-part-2.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=is-abortion-liberal-part-2</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/10/is-abortion-liberal-part-2.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Feticide]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Political Philosophy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Politicians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Abortion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Classical Liberalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[David Boonin]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Francis Beckwith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Liberalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Libertarianism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Michael Tooley]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rodney Hide]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/10/is-abortion-liberal-part-2/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my previous post, Is Abortion Liberal? Part 1, I argued that liberals who support the non-initiation of force principle can support abortion only on two grounds; (a) the fetus is a person but its existence inside the mother without her consent constitutes a form aggression, and hence, the mother’s action of killing it is [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;">In my previous post, <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/10/is-abortion-liberal-part-1.html">Is Abortion Liberal? Part 1</a>, I argued that liberals who support the non-initiation of force principle can support abortion only on two grounds;</p>
<blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><p>(a) the fetus is a person but its existence inside the mother without her consent constitutes a form aggression, and hence, the mother’s action of killing it is defensive; or,<br />
 (b) a fetus is not a person.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">I will now address each of these in turn.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>Is the Fetus an Aggressor?</em><br />
 Consider first (a), the contention that a fetus can be considered an aggressor because it is intruding upon a woman’s body without her consent; an intrusion grave enough to justify the use of lethal force. In this respect then, being subject to an unplanned pregnancy would be on par with being the recipient of a serious assault such as being raped or severely beaten.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Frank Beckwith and Steve Thomas in <a href="http://mises.org/journals/jls/17_3/17_3_1.pdf">Consent, Sex and the Pre-Natal Rapist</a>, have demonstrated several problems with this claim. It leads to the conclusion that, in certain circumstances abortion is <em>justified without the consent of the woman</em>.</p>
<blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><p>Consider the following scenario. A young woman is involved in a car accident and is rendered unconscious by her injuries. She is brought to a hospital where, still comatose, she is examined by a doctor. While performing some tests, the doctor determines that the woman has been pregnant for several weeks. Furthermore, suppose that evidence comes to light to suggest that the woman is unaware of her pregnancy, perhaps her close friends know nothing of the pregnancy, her diary shows no knowledge of being pregnant, and so on.</p>
<p>Adopting McDonagh&#8217;s understanding of pregnancy as morally equivalent to rape or assault, what is the doctor&#8217;s obligation to this unconscious patient? It would seem that, under these conditions, the doctor is morally required to perform an abortion to rid his patient of the &#8216;massive intrusion&#8217; being imposed upon her by her unborn offspring. After regaining consciousness, the woman would have to be told that she&#8217;s undergone an abortion for a pregnancy of which she was not aware, for there was good evidence that no consent had been given and that she was under assault.[i]</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Beckwith’s point is that if the fetus is morally or legally on par with an aggressor who intrudes upon a woman’s body without her consent, such as a assailant or rapist then it would follow that in the case sketched above the doctor would be justified (and arguably would have an obligation) to abort <em>despite the fact that no consent from the women had been obtained</em>.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Consider, that if one saw a person having sex with an unconscious woman and one knew the woman had not consented, it would be absurd to wait for the woman to wake up to see if she wanted to consent to sex. One would be obligated to intervene. “[T]he doctor in the midst of the situation, aware of the pregnancy in the absence of consent, must see it as the rape-in-progress of his unconscious patient. How could he do anything else but end the assault?”[ii]</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Now I assume that liberals would oppose the idea that any woman who both does not know she is pregnant and is unconscious should be subjected to an abortion without her consent. If this is the case then it is clear that they do not think that an unconsented to pregnancy constitutes an act of serious aggression.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">If the fetus is an unjust aggressor then liberals are committed to coercive abortions. If coercive abortions are not liberal then the fetus is not an unjust aggressor.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>Is the Fetus a Person?</em><br />
 If the fetus is not an unjust aggressor then a liberal defense of abortion must be based upon (b), the idea that a fetus is not a person, a being that possesses the rights to life, liberty and property that liberals believe the state exists to protect.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Now a fetus is clearly a human organism. After 14 days at least, it is an individual living being that is a member of the species homo sapiens. To justify abortion via (b), the liberal needs to tell us what property a human being possesses that grounds the right to not be subjected to the initiation of force, to not be killed. Further a liberal must also be able to plausibly maintain that a human organism does not acquire this property until after the fetal stage.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2005/05/cue-card-libertarianism-abortion.html">Peter Cresswell takes the view</a>,</p>
<blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><p>[T]he foetus is not yet a human being, but a part of a human being – the mother – who has rights over it. To be an actual, rather than merely potential, human being is, among other things, to be physically separate, which a foetus is not.<a name="_ednref3"></a></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">This claim is erroneous. First the “parts of” relationship is transitive; if a brick is part of a wall and the wall part of a house then the brick is part of the house. If a fetus is part of a woman’s body it follows then that any organ that is part of the fetus will be part of the mother. A woman pregnant at eight weeks then possesses four arms, four legs and two brains. If the fetus is male, she will have both a vagina and a penis and be both male and female. Conclusions that are even more bizarre follow if the woman is pregnant with twins. She could have three faces, three brains, six arms, two penises and a vagina, three hearts, six kidneys and so on.[iv]</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Moreover, PC’s contention that “to be an actual human” one must be “physically separate” entails that conjoined twins are not human. Consider conjoined twins Bob and Scott. If Bob is a human being then since Scott cannot live independently of Bob, Scott must not be a human person (the converse is equally true).</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Yet it is difficult to see what property Bob has that Scott lacks which would justify considering one of them human and the other not simply because neither is dependant of the other. It appears then, that one would be forced to conclude that they both are and are not, human. Perhaps PC is simply giving a poorly worded defence of the viability criteria, <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2007/10/viability.html">which I have previously critiqued here</a>.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">However, the usual liberal response is to ground the right to not be subjected to the initiation of force, to not be killed, in certain psychological capacities that human beings typically display; such things as sentience, rationality, self-awareness, autonomy, etc.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Despite the pervasive appeal of this approach, it faces serious problems. Boonin notes that those who attempt to ground humanity in the amount of brain development an organism has face a dilemma. “Any appeal to what a brain can do at various stages of development would seem to have to appeal to what the brain can already do. Or to what the brain has the potential to do in the future.”[v]</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Either option leads to problems for a defender of the permissibility of abortion who does not also want to endorse infanticide. This is because “by any plausible measure dogs, and cats, cows and pigs, chickens and ducks or more intellectually developed than a new born infant.”[vi] Suppose, then, one takes the first horn and appeals to what the brain can already do. However, unless one wishes to affirm that cats, dogs and chickens are human beings, “appeals to what the brain can already do” will “be unable to account for the presumed wrongness of killing toddlers or infants.”[vii] Suppose, then, one takes up the second horn of the dilemma and appeals to “what the brain has the potential to do in the future;”[viii] Boonin notes that this will entail that feticide is homicide. “If [such an account] allows appeals to what the brain has the potential to do in the future, then it will have to include fetuses as soon as their brains begin to emerge, during the first few weeks of gestation.”[ix]</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">A couple of examples will illustrate this. Suppose the liberal appeals to sentience, the capacity for consciousness and the ability to perceive pleasure and pain. This criterion will mean abortion is permissible up to 24 weeks.[x] The problem is that this criterion also catches cats, dogs, cows, and chickens as well all. All of which are as sentient if not more sentient than new born infants and post-24 week fetuses.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">If the liberal draws the line at sentience, he/she will have to hold that farming, butchers shops, McDonald’s restaurants, Kentucky fried Chicken restaurants all engage in unjustified aggression against people because they kill sentient beings without their consent. Further, to remain consistent, the liberal will have to maintain a policy of outlawing all these industries and prosecuting those who engage in them for murder and cannibalism.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Suppose the liberal appeals to more advanced psychological states such as self-awareness, rationality or autonomy. Such accounts of the grounding of rights will exclude the animals mentioned above and will exclude human fetuses. The problem is, according to this account, newborn infants are not persons either.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">In a definitive study of infanticide, Michael Tooley compiles an impressive array of neurological and physiological data that demonstrates that infants are not persons in this sense until some time after birth.<a name="_Ref107208570"></a>[xi] The price of this line of inference is the reduction of newborn infants to the ethical level of cows. A newborn cow, and certainly a mature cow, is more person-like than an infant is. It is difficult to understand by this view why killing and eating infants is any more problematic than consuming a Big Mac.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Of course the liberal can avoid this by claiming that it is the potential to acquire properties such as rationality, self-awareness, autonomy, not their actuality that matters. This will enable one to claim infants are protected by the non-initiation of force principle and will exclude animals. But the problem of course is that foetuses will also be protected by the non-initiation of force principle because fetuses also have the potential to possess these properties.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">In summation, liberal proponents of the non-initiation of force principle can only support abortion if they are willing to be inconsistent and arbitrary in their application of the principle or if they are willing to endorse not just infanticide but the eating of newborn infants or state mandated vegetarianism or coercive abortions. These policies are an anathema to most liberals; as such, abortion is not liberal.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong>UPDATE:</strong> In response to comments below see <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/11/sentience-part-1.html">Sentience Part 1</a> and <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/11/sentience-part-2.html">Sentience Part 2</a>.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 85%;">[i]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Francis J. Beckwith &amp; Stephen Thomas, “Consent, Sex, and the Prenatal Rapist; A Brief Reply to McDonagh’s Suggested Revision of Roe v Wade,” <em>Journal of Libertarian Studies</em> 17: 3 (2003): 4.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[ii]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Ibid, 6.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[iii]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Peter Creswell, “<a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2005/05/cue-card-libertarianism-abortion.html">Not PC: Cue Card Libertarianism – Abortion</a>”</span><a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2005/05/cue-card-libertarianism-abortion.html"></a><span style="font-size: 85%;">.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[iv]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Here I am influenced by Peter Kreeft, <em>The Unaborted Socrates</em> (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1983), 45-47 and Francis J Beckwith, <em>Politically Correct Death</em>, 124.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[v]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> David Boonin, <em>A Defense of Abortion</em> (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003) 125.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[vi]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Ibid, 121.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[vii]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Ibid.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[viii]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Ibid.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[ix]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Ibid.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[x]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> It is generally accepted that sentience occurs around 24 week’s gestation. There is some dispute over this and some scientists date sentience in the first 10 weeks of gestation.<br />
 </span><span style="font-size: 85%;">[xi]</span><span style="font-size: 85%;"> Michael Tooley, <em>Abortion and Infanticide</em> (New York: Oxford University Press, 1983) Ch. 11.5.</span></p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/10/is-abortion-liberal-part-2.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>27</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>The &#8220;Dark Ages&#8221; and Other Propaganda</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 02:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Atheists]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Faith and Reason]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Science and Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dark Ages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps I am a glutton for punishment, but I have been having an interesting dialogue with Peter Cresswell about the history of theology. To sum up PC follows the 20th century novelist Ayn Rand. Rand&#8217;s followers view Aristotle as the &#8220;father of the enlightenment,&#8221; they appear to hold a view of history that is extremely [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;">Perhaps I am a glutton for punishment, but I have been having an interesting dialogue with <a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/">Peter Cresswell </a>about the history of theology.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">To sum up PC follows the 20th century novelist Ayn Rand. Rand&#8217;s followers view Aristotle as the &#8220;father of the enlightenment,&#8221; they appear to hold a view of history that is extremely common in popular history. The story goes like this: prior to the rise of Christianity was the &#8220;classical period&#8221; where science and reason flourished among the ancient Greek thinkers (of which Aristotle is the par excellence). This learning was extinguished by the rise of Christianity, which hated reason and science in favour of a superstitious faith. This brought about a period called the &#8216;dark ages&#8217; where all progress and science were suppressed. The discovery of Aristotle&#8217;s works in the late middle ages changed this, people began following reason again and as a result liberated themselves from the shackles of dark age superstitions most notably Christianity. It was this liberation from religious superstition that brought about the rise of science, a rise contested unsuccessfully by the Church, which resulted in the enlightenment where secularism prevailed. Such things as liberty and freedom come from the enlightenment, not from Christianity, which opposed it.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">I have maintained for some time now that this story is mistaken and based on simplistic and often caricatured readings of the history of theology. PC on the other hand demurs, he thinks this is clearly true and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply spouting religious propaganda. The exchange is below. PC&#8217;s comments are in italics my responses follow each one.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">1. <em>You see, at the root of the Enlightenment was the knowledge that reason is capable of explaining existence &#8212; that is, that reason is our means of acquiring knowledge, and it is knowledge of this world, not of the next one. Knowledge of nature, not of “super-nature,” is that promotes life on earth.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Actually, no. Many of the major enlightenment figures did not limit reason to nature. Descartes’ defended the ontological argument, Locke, defended Christianity and theism and in fact his epistemology was motivated by the desire to be able to come to correct conclusions about God (this is according to what his friend wrote on one of the earliest manuscripts of Locke’s essay). Berkley was a theist who wanted to refute materialism, Hume’s religious affinities are a matter of debate but many view him as a theist or deist. Reid was a Presbyterian minister who wanted to use reason to fight skepticism about religion. Berkley defended the ontological and cosmological arguments and used reason to develop a theodicy. Kant wanted to make room for faith and immortality and defended the moral argument. Newton’s preface states that his basis for adopting the scientific method was theological (and anti-Aristotelian btw) and he developed his physics, in part, to defend the existence of God. I could go on.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Moreover, one of the major problems with the epistemology of the enlightenment (known as classical foundationalism) is that it had trouble providing a basis for knowledge of an external world. This is a central issue in Descartes through to Locke, Berkley, Hume, Reid, etc. Locke believed that much of what we perceive are secondary qualities, created by our mind. Hume took the skepticism to its conclusion. Berkley, Reid and Descartes appealed to theology to solve these skeptical problems. Kant used this skepticism to defend theology.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>2. The fact is that since the rediscovery of Aristotle&#8217;s writings, the Church has sought to reconcile reason and mysticism, and to appropriate the pagan Aristotle as some sort of patron saint.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Actually the project of using reason to defend, develop and refine faith predates Aristotle and goes all the way back to Philo of Alexandria. Then there are the early Church fathers like Justin (a Greek philosopher), Origen, Athanasius, Augustine, Athenagoras, Clement, Gregory of Nazianius, Basil, to name a few. Moreover, classical Greek philosophy and learning was promoted prior to Aquinas by people like Boethius, Isidore, Anselm, Bede, Peter Damian, Abelard and so on. Some early Christian thinkers were hostile to Greek Philosophy or hostile to it in certain contexts but many were not and the suggestion that the anti-philosophy camp was main-stream is simply false.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">3 <em>Aristotle&#8217;s method of observation-based rationality was so utterly at odds with the religionist thinking that had dominated the Dark Ages, and was responsible for those Ages being Dark, that they struck even religious thinkers like a bombshell when they were rediscovered after a millennia of darkness.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Wrong again, Numbers and Lindberg note that recent historical research suggests that this portrayal of the early middle ages as “the dark ages” is a caricature. (David C Lindberg “The Medieval Church Encounters the Classical Tradition: Saint Augustine, Roger Bacon and the Handmaiden Metaphor” in <em>When Science &amp; Christianity Meet</em>, ed. David C. Lindberg &amp; Ronald L. Numbers (Chicago: Chicago University Press, 2003) 7-8). A conclusion shared by the studies of Henri Pirenne (<em>A History of Europe from the End of the Roman World</em> <em>in the West to the Beginning of Western States</em>, (New York: Doubleday Anchor, 1958)) and Marc Bloch (<em>Feudal Society</em>, (Chicago: Chicago University Press, 1961)) and Richard Hodge (“The Not So Dark Ages,” <em>Archaeology</em> 51 (September/October 1998).</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Contemporary encyclopaedias bear this out; the 1975 <em>New Columbia Encyclopaedia</em> states that the term “dark ages” is no longer used by historians because this period is “no longer thought to have been so dim.’ Similarly the <em>Encyclopaedia Britannica</em> states the term “dark ages” is “now rarely used by historians because of the unacceptable value judgment it implies,” the term “dark ages” incorrectly implies this was “a period of intellectual darkness and barbarity.”</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>3 [W]hen the works of Aristotle—the master of natural science and secular philosophy—were rediscovered in 12th-century Islamic Spain, it is no mystery that Western European thinkers—after centuries of suppression and penury.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Actually the suppression of heretical views rarely occurred in the, so called, dark ages. The early church supported freedom of religion until the fifth century when Augustine reluctantly supported suppression of the dontatists. Some Roman emperors put in place laws against heresy which were enforced sporadically in the late roman period (often with protests from the church) but these laws fell out of use and were not enforced in the period mistakenly called the dark ages.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">It was not until after the &#8216;dark ages&#8217; that heresy was suppressed by Inquisitional courts. In fact it was the heavily Aristotelian Dominican order which carried this suppression out and who justified it. This is all well documented in Joseph Lecler <em>Toleration and the Reformation</em>, trans. by TL Weslow (New York: Association Press, 1960); Edward Peter’s, <em>Inquisition</em>, (London: Collier Macmillan, 1981) and also by Stark (<em>For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery</em> (Princeton NJ: Princeton University Press, 2004).</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>4. In fact the the scientific revolution came about because of a rejection of the Church&#8217;s intellectual domination.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The thesis that the Church for centuries consistently suppressed science and prevented its flourishing (known as the conflict thesis) originates in two works, John Draper’s <em>History of the Conflict between Religion and Science</em> (1874) and Andrew Dickson White in his book <em>A History of The Warfare Between Science and Theology in Christendom</em>. The conflict thesis is now widely rejected by historians of science. Several people such as Stanley Jaki, (<em>The Road to Science and the Ways to God</em> (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1978)); Alfred Whitehead, (<em>Science and the Modern World</em> (New York: Macmillan, 1925); Peire Duhem, (<em>L&#8217;Aube du savoir: épitomé du système du monde (histoire des doctrines cosmologiques de Platon à Copernic</em>), ed. Anastasios Brenner, Paris, Hermann, selections from Duhem 1913-59). Michael Foster (&#8220;The Christian Doctrine of Creation and the rise of Modern Natural Science,&#8221; <em>Mind</em> 43 (1934), 446–468 &#8220;Christian Theology and Modern Science of Nature (I)&#8221; <em>Mind </em>44 (1935) 439–466; &#8220;Christian Theology and Modern Science of Nature (II)&#8221; <em>Mind </em>45 (October, 1936), 1–27. Also, Reijer Hookykaas (<em>Religion and the Rise of Modern Science</em> (Grand Rapids, MI: William B Eerdmans, 1972) and Stark have all called this thesis into question and argued that Christian ways of understanding lead to the rise of Science.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Other’s, most notably Numbers and Lindberg, while not wanting to defend the claim that Christianity fostered the rise of Science, also question the conflict thesis. In an anthology they edited, entitled <em>God and Nature,</em> Numbers and Lindberg suggest a more nuanced thesis; that the relationship between theology and science has been too complex over the ages for either generalisation to be correct.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">However both schools, as far as I can tell, reject Whites work as a piece of propaganda. As Collin Russel notes “Draper takes such liberty with history, perpetuating legends as fact, that he is rightly avoided today in serious historical study. The same is nearly as true of White, though his prominent apparatus of prolific footnotes may create a misleading impression of meticulous scholarship.” (&#8220;The Conflict of Science and Religion&#8221; in <em>The Encyclopedia of the History of Science and Religion</em>, New York 2000). John Hedley Brooke, the Andreas Idreos Professor of Science and Religion at the University of Oxford, writes in <em>Science and Religion &#8211; Some Historical Perspectives (1991),</em> “In its traditional forms, the [conflict] thesis has been largely discredited”. Similarly, Edward Grant Professor Emeritus of the History and Philosophy of Science at Indiana University writes, “If revolutionary rational thoughts were expressed in the Age of Reason [the 18th century], they were only made possible because of the long medieval tradition that established the use of reason as one of the most important of human activities” In the same vein Steven Shapin Professor of Sociology at the University of California, San Diego writes, &#8220;In the late Victorian period it was common to write about the &#8216;warfare between science and religion&#8217; and to presume that the two bodies of culture must always have been in conflict. However, it is a very long time since these attitudes have been held by historians of science.&#8221;</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">5. <em>Need I mention Galileo? That Galileo saw Aristotle as an adversary was wholly due to the Church&#8217;s appropriation of The Philsopher, but in evey important respect Galileo&#8217;s method of observation-based rationality was</em> <em>Aristotle&#8217;s, whether Galileo knew it or not.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Actually the Galileo example does not fit PC&#8217;s picture. As William Shea notes Galileo was part of a Platonic revival in Florence. (“Galileo and the Church” in Ronald Numbers and David Lindberg (eds).<em> God and Nature Historical Essays on the Encounter between Christianity and Science</em> ( Berkley: University of California Press, 1986) 124). He rejected an Aristoleian view of science in favour of a more Platonic view. As a result, Stillman Drake (<em>Galileo</em> (Oxford: Oxford University Press)) notes that Galileo’s strongest opponents were supporters of Aristotle and it was more his calling into question Aristotle that got him into trouble than his disagreements with the Church.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Interestingly, the Copernican theory that the earth revolves around the sun originates with fourteenth century theologians Burdian and Nicolas d&#8217;Oresme; their theories were based in part on Theological condemnations of Aristotelian Philosophy that had occurred in the previous century.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Finally Galileo in developing his views followed the teachings on religion and science propounded by “dark age” writer Augustine of Hippo.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Its amusing to see PC cite a Platonist anti-Aristotelian thinker persecuted by the Aristotelian scientists for following the views of science and religion expounded by a “dark age” philosopher as evidence that Aristotelian ways of thinking liberated science from the shackles of platonist and &#8220;dark age&#8221; theologians.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>6. Newton is not revered for his mystic rambklings or his alchemy; he is revered because his physics integrated and explained such a wealth of actual observations of reality.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Newton’s physics in fact were based on the theological voluntarism of the late middle ages which rejected Aristotelian theories on the ground that God, being sovereign, freely choose the create the world. This is evident from the preface of Newton’s Principia.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">7<em>. Locke is revered not for wanting to exclude Catholics from the throne and supporting the suppression of atheists, but for explaining that the protection of individual rights is the only legitimate job of governments, and explaining and integrating the method by which individual rights are best protected</em>.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Actually Locke’s argument in the <em>The Two Treatises of Government</em> is very different from this. Unlike so many Libertarians I encounter I have actually read the book several times. Locke, in fact, grounds rights not in the sovereignty of the individual but in the sovereignty of God. Moreover, his moral theory is based on the voluntarist accounts of natural law which were developed in opposition to Aristotelian natural law theory and which were based on theological concerns about Aristotle limiting God’s freedom and omnipotence.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">8<em>. Ockham and Scotus and Albertus Magnus are properly revered not because they were Christians, but for their enormous contributions to the popularisation of logic and reason in an age of Christian darkness</em>.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Actually none of these thinkers lived in the so called &#8220;dark ages;&#8221; the first two you mention lived in the the later Middle Ages. Moreover, Scotus and Ockham in fact were voluntarists. Voluntarism was a movement based in part on the theological condemnations the Church had made of Aristotle. As Edward Grant notes, in many cases what we see is not Aristotle bringing light to a superstitious church but a Church offering theologically based objections to Aristotle and the scientific progress being the result of attempts to find theologically acceptable alternatives to Aristotle.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">9. <em>Aquinas is revered not because he was part of the newly founded the Dominican Order set up to combat heresy in Europe, but because he opened the door to intellectual freedom in the west, however inadvertently</em>.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Unfortunately, again the facts do not support this. During the &#8220;dark ages&#8221; the official policy towards Jews pagans and heretics was de facto tolerance. As I noted most of the early church supported freedom of religion. It was the later middle ages which saw the establishment of Inquisitions to prosecute heresy. Interestingly, Aquinas supported these Inquisitions and used his Aristotelian reason to defend them. However, Aquinas did support tolerating Jews and non-believers citing the authority of “dark age” theologians for support of his position.</p>
<div style="text-align: justify;">***</div>
<div style="text-align: justify;">Ironically when I broached some of these issues, one of PC&#8217;s supporters has stated that people like me are analogous to &#8220;communists&#8221; and not worth reasoning with. I leave my readers to ponder who here represents the stereotyped categories of &#8220;the dark ages&#8221; versus the &#8220;enlightenment.&#8221;</div>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong>RELATED POSTS:</strong><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html"></a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/09/more-on-the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html">More on the Dark Ages and Other Propaganda</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/09/more-on-the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html"></a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2007/07/things-they-dont-teach-you-in-public-schools.html">Things They Don’t Teach you in Public Schools…</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2007/07/the-flat-earth-myth.html">The Flat Earth Myth</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/contra-mundum-the-flat-earth-myth.html">Contra Mundum: The Flat-Earth Myth</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/10/guest-post-dan-brown%E2%80%99s-history-of-science.html">Guest Post: Dan Brown’s History of Science</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>12</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Theology, Morality and Reason</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/03/theology-morality-and-reason.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=theology-morality-and-reason</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/03/theology-morality-and-reason.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 22:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Divine Command Theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Faith and Reason]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ethics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/03/theology-morality-and-reason/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In my previous post I mediated on the morality of lying. I suggested that a divine command theorist: a person who believes that the property of moral wrongness is the property of being contrary to God’s commands does not need to affirm that lying is wrong in any and all circumstances. In updating the post [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;">In my previous post I mediated on the morality of lying. I suggested that a divine command theorist:  a person who believes that the property of moral wrongness is the property of being contrary to God’s commands does not need to affirm that lying is wrong in any and all circumstances.  In updating the post to which I was replying <a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2008/02/should-you-ever-lie-to-thief.html">PC</a> writes.</p>
<blockquote style="text-align: justify;"><p>UPDATE 2: <a title="'Permissible Lies' - Matt Flannagan, M &amp; M" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/02/permissible-lies.html">Matt Flannagan</a> agrees with my conclusion, but disagrees with both my reasoning and my assertion that the religionist is obliged to follow divine commandments without question.  On behalf of her own religious beliefs, <a title="'Lying to a thief' - NZ CONSERVATIVE" href="http://nzconservative.blogspot.com/2008/02/lying-to-thief.html">Lucyna<br />
 disagrees with us both</a>.  It&#8217;s hard to keep up with a religionist!</p></blockquote>
<div style="text-align: justify;">PC here conflates two separate issues. He is not alone in this, something like it often comes up amongst people I dialogue with for this reason its worth clarifying the issues here. There is a distinction between [1] Questioning a command one believes to be from God and [2] questioning the claim that a particular action is commanded by God. One can do [2] without doing [1] and doing [1] does not commit one t do doing [2].</p>
<p>Contrary to PC I don’t support doing [1]. I accept that if God commands an action then one should obey it without question. Note this is a conditional statement, it states “if God commands an action” one does not need to accept that God has commanded an action, or even that God exists to accept this statement. In fact advocates of an ideal observer theory can (and do) hold to this conditional without accepting that God exists at all.</p>
<p>The reason I accept this conditional is that it seems impossible for a person to coherently and rationally accept that God commanded and action and also to believe the action should not be done. The concept of God is that he is (i) rational, (ii) perfectly good and (iii) omniscient. Hence if God commands something then a rational fully informed perfectly good person commands the action. Under what circumstances then could it be rational to question the command of a fully rational perfectly good fully informed person.  Is it that the commander is mistaken.? No, the commander is omniscient ( see (iii) . Is that he informed but is malicious?  No it’s stipulated that the person is good (see (ii).  Is that he has made a mistaken inference of some sort No, its stipulated that the commander is rational (see (i)) Is it that ones own judgement about what rules need to be inacted are just as good or better that God’s? Unless one is omniscient never ever irrational and morally perfect this will also be false. Hence I simply cannot see any sense in [1]. In fact I find the snarky insinuation that “accepting Gods commands without question” is obviously irrational simply puzzling. How could it be irrational to accept a command which is required by a perfectly rational being? Doesn’t the fact that a perfectly rational, good, fully informed being endorse this rule show that accepting it is compatible with being rational good and informed.</p>
<p>Nor does denying that [1] is a viable option involve an uncritical, unreflective dogmatic, blind acquiescence to authority. Even if one rejects [1] it does not follow that one reject [2]. The fact that if God commands X we should obey it, does not mean we uncritically accept every claim that God has commanded X. Nor does it mean one does not utilise reason, facts, critical judgement etc in determining what God does command.</p>
<p>Consider the issue of lying, which PC and I were discussing, it is not that I accept that God commands us to never lie under any circumstances but I have sometimes decide God is mistaken and so adopt a different rule. It is rather that I do not think that a perfectly good, rational being, does command us to never lie.  If, as PC contends, its irrational or contrary to human flourishing to accept a rule forbidding lying to the Gestapo, then this entails  that a rational being , informed of the facts who cared about our flourishing would not endorse such a rule. If then one is to maintain that God does endorse such a rule one needs to address the kind of arguments PC provides.</p>
<p>I don’t think this is necessary because I don’t think God issues such a rule. I think that a careful exegesis of scripture provides evidence that they do not teach a non-contextual absolute prohibition on lying. That’s a critical judgement; reading and interpretation requires thinking, sometimes hard thinking.  Moreover I think a reflection on the logic of rules suggests there is a kind of implicit exception of this sort, seeing I think that moral rules are divine commands that means I think God has made this exception.</p>
<p>A final comment worth noting  PC seems to insinuate that  because  <a title="'Lying to a thief' - NZ CONSERVATIVE" href="http://nzconservative.blogspot.com/2008/02/lying-to-thief.html">Lucyna </a>and I disagree on this issue, religionists ( by which I assume he means theists) are in some kind of trouble. It somehow calls into question theism or “religion” (whatever the term religion means). I often hear this line of argument but have never understood why any one would endorse it. After all don’t atheists sometimes disagree over specific moral issues. In fact don’t Libertarians and Randian’s sometimes disagree amongst themselves. But then why does not this disagreement call atheism and libertarianism into question?</p>
<p>Today scientists agree that nature exists, they agree over the basic structure of nature and types of laws that govern its behaviour. However despite this they do disagree over numerous issues of how nature behaves, exactly what laws operate or how they operate in a given context. The same is true of Theology, one can accept that God exist and one can even agree on the basics of what God commands and yet still have disagreements over how these commands apply in specific circumstances.  This no more provides a reason to denigrate theology and deny the existence of God than scientific reasoning provides reason for denying the existence of the natural world and denigrating science.</p>
<p>Moral Theology does not involve people blindly accepting authority never reasoning or thinking that is a gross caricature, one who holds it has never read Aquinas, or Augustine, or Calvin, or Locke or Kant, or Berkeley or numerous other contributors to this enterprise. Why people who clearly have so little understanding of the subject pontificate on it in the name of critical informed reason, is frankly, beyond me.</p>
</div>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/03/theology-morality-and-reason.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Permissible Lies</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/02/permissible-lies.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=permissible-lies</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/02/permissible-lies.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Divine Command Theory]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ethics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lucia Maria]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mandm.churchweb.co.nz/2008/02/permissible-lies/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In wake of the return of the stolen victoria crosses and the Police claiming they are “honour bound” to pay the thieves the promised reward not PC argues that it is permissible to lie to an agressor. The standard example in the literature (which PC utilises) goes something like this: You are hiding someone fleeing [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In wake of the return of the stolen victoria crosses and the Police claiming they are “honour bound” to pay the thieves the promised reward n<a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2008/02/should-you-ever-lie-to-thief.html">ot PC </a>argues that it <em>is</em> permissible to lie to an agressor. The standard example in the literature (which PC utilises) goes something like this: You are hiding someone fleeing for their life (modern examples use Jews in Nazi occupied territory). A murderer (modern examples usually use the Gestapo) come knocking on your door. They ask you if you know the whereabouts of their prey. Do you tell the truth?</p>
<p>I agree with not PC that the correct answer to this question is no. I agree that the rule to not lie is restricted in scope, prohibiting lying to competent adults who are not violating our rights or threatening such a violation.</p>
<p>Interestingly, not PC seems to think I am committed to rejecting this conclusion. He insinuates that Kantian and Divine Command approaches to ethics entail that one can never lie under any circumstances. He writes for example “that moral principles are neither &#8220;divine commandments&#8221; nor &#8220;categorical imperatives&#8221; &#8212; they are guides to action applying within a certain framework of conditions;”and latter he is more explict<br />
<blockquote>Unlike the ethics of religionists, Objectivism derives its moral principles not from stone tablets or burning bushes or caliphate commandments &#8212; not on what&#8217;s needed to live in heaven or paradise in some supernatural realm &#8212; but from from the needs of man&#8217;s survival and flourishing right here on this earth. The contrast with religious morality could not be greater: for the Objectivist, moral principles are guides to action intended to enhance and sustain one&#8217;s life. For the religionist however, moral principles are divine commandments that act like a ball and chain &#8212; a dogmatic straitjacket commanding one&#8217;s obedience, even if when talking to a Gestapo officer it could lead to your own death or that of a loved one. For the Objectivist, the answer to a Gestapo chief is outside the bounds of morality altogether: morality ends when the Gestapo chief&#8217;s gun begins. But for the religionist, telling the truth is an absolute necessity even if it entails the sacrifice of your life and that of your loved ones.</p></blockquote>
<p>Here PC is just plain wrong. While it is correct that many Catholic moral theologians support an unqualified prohibition on lying PC misunderstands the rationale they propose for this verdict. Catholic teaching on natural law as (expounded by people like Thomas Aquinas) is precisely that the moral law <em>i</em>s derived from what conduces to human flourishing. Lying is prohibited <em>because it is believed to be conducive to human flourishing</em>. It is not prohibited because such a rule makes one fit for heaven or because its set down in tablets of stone promulgated by burning bush (apart from slander lying is not mentioned in the ten commandments) nor is it held to be correct because a priest or caliphate says so. Catholic theologians <em>argue</em> for this thesis from Aristotelian understandings of human flourishing. I think they are incorrect, but thats not an excuse for misrepresenting their position.</p>
<p>Similar things can be said about Divine Command Theories (and contrary to PC not all &#8220;religionists&#8221; are divine command theorists) . Divine command theories (DCT) as propounded by Locke, Berkley, Paley, Suarez etc typically affirm that right and wrong are determined by God’s prescriptive will. However these thinkers go on to stress that God is a rational being who wills the flourishing of human beings and hence what God’s will is rational and God commands what promotes or leads or respects human flourishing in some way.</p>
<p>But to the more substantive point.</p>
<p>A DC theorist is committed to claiming that it is never wrong to lie in any circumstance, only if believes God has commanded this. Such a claim is often attributed to the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, but this is debatable to say the least. The Hebrew scriptures contain several passages where God approves of lying in certain contexts. One obvious example is the case of the Hebrew midwives in the book of Exodus. In the narrative Pharaoh orders that all Hebrew male children are to be killed at birth. The midwives respond by lying to Pharaoh about the births in order to protect them <em>and are commended by God for their actions</em>. There has been a huge amount of discussion of these passages and their application to moral theology on lying within Christian casuistry. So it is surprising people so often attribute naïve absolutism to moral theologians who take scripture seriously.</p>
<p>Nor does a person sympathetic (as I am) to Kantian understandings of morality have to embrace the conclusion that’s its never wrong to lie. According to some Kantian’s (such as Alan Donagan) ethical principles have a logic such that one person cannot appeal to a principle for protection as a shield for breaking that principle or another equally as grave. Self defence is perhaps the clearest paradigm: a person cannot rationally appeal to an absolute right to not be killed if he uses that right as a shield to cover his killing of someone else. Such a position involves a contradiction of the will. And it rejects the universalizability of moral principles; the idea that what rules one lays down for others must, if they are moral principles, also apply to oneself.</p>
<p>I am inclined to think that without something like this condition ethical principles would become incoherent. If one cannot justifiably use force to repel an attacker when the only way the attacker can be repelled is by force then the attacker has a freedom right to attack his victim. But surely if the claim it’s wrong to kill entails anything it entails that people do not have a freedom right to do kill others. Now, if one can use force against a person to protect ourselves and others from their attacks it seems hard to see why we can’t lie or deceive them to do so.</p>
<p>What does this mean in the present context? It means that not PC is correct that the police are not bound by a promise to pay the reward to those who stole the Victoria Crosses. The Police would be acting licitly if they refused to pay. And nothing about being a divine command theorist or Kantian precludes one drawing this conclusion</p>
<p>Let me add a final point in defence of PC’s conclusion. The standard argument against lying in this context takes a <a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consequentialism-rule/">rule consquentialist </a>line. It’s contended that accepting a rule that permits the police to renege on paying such rewards has bad consequences. Criminals in future cases may not divulge information necessary to solve crimes and hence peoples property will not be returned. The problem here, as with many appeals to consquentialism, is that there are other consequences of accepting this rule which point the other way. A rule where criminals get paid for returning what they steal makes stealing and ransoming pay and hence encourage stealing, kidnapping, ransoming etc.</p>
<p>Consequently, if one is to appeal to positive consequences in a plausible way one needs to examine the <em>total consequences</em> of accepting the rule. One need’s to examine both how many crimes will be solved by accepting this rule <em>and</em> how much crime will be encouraged if we don’t and it needs to be shown that former good results outweigh the latter. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever done this calculation. Until they have the claim that consequences justify honouring agreements to thieves is unsubstantiated.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/02/permissible-lies.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
		</item>
	</channel>
</rss>

