<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/"
	>

<channel>
	<title>MandM &#187; Regine Pernoud</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/tag/regine-pernoud/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz</link>
	<description>Philosophy of Religion, Ethics, Theology and Jurisprudence</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:08:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<language>en</language>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>Contra Mundum: Religion and Violence</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/06/contra-mundum-religion-and-violence.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=contra-mundum-religion-and-violence</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/06/contra-mundum-religion-and-violence.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 04:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Christian History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Contra Mundum]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[9/11]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Alister McGrath]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christopher Eberle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[David Lindberg]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Glenn Peoples]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Historical Atrocities]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Investigate Magazine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jim Peron]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Nicholas Wolterstorff]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Osama Bin Laden]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Regine Pernoud]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religion in Public Life]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Religious History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Richard Wurmbrand]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ronald Numbers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sam Harris]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Terence Cuneo]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=9182</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On 1 May 2011 the world received the news that Osama Bin Laden was dead; gunned down in Pakistan by an elite team of US Navy Seals. Even before his death Bin Laden had become a legendary persona. Not only was he a terrorist leader responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocents but he [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;">On 1 May 2011 the world received the news that Osama Bin Laden was dead; gunned down in Pakistan by an elite team of US Navy Seals. Even before his death Bin Laden had become a legendary persona. Not only was he a terrorist leader responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocents but he functioned as a contemporary paradigm of the fanatical religious nutter who promotes hatred, violence and intolerance &#8211; much like the symbol Adolf Hitler was to earlier generations.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><a rel="attachment wp-att-8081" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/02/fallacy-friday-tu-quoque-but-you-did-it-too.html/bosbin"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-8081" style="margin-left: 0px; margin-right: 7px; margin-top: 5px; margin-bottom: 0px;" title="Osama Bin Laden" src="http://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/bosbin-228x300.jpg" alt="Osama Bin Laden" width="127" height="168" /></a>The 9/11 terrorist attacks reinvigorated a fear that has lain dormant in the western psyche since at least the 17<sup>th</sup> century. This fear is encapsulated in an objection to belief in God known as the argument from historical atrocities. Many critics of religion refer to the religious wars that tore Europe apart during the 17<sup>th</sup> century, citing events such as the Inquisition and Crusades &#8212; although lately the Taliban have been the image of choice.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Recently, whilst debating the viability of religious morality at the University of Notre Dame, best-selling author Sam Harris repeatedly cited the Taliban as a representative example of theological ethics. One need not read far into the literature of contemporary free thinkers to uncover this line of argument. Consider Jim Peron of the <em>Institute for Liberal Values</em>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">“To admit religion into the “public arena” is “dangerous.” And long term the results will be just as bloody and violent as they were in the past. … To put religion into that sector is to ignore centuries of history and return to the conflict-ridden, bloody world of the Dark Ages.”</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Peron went on to refer to common motifs of the Inquisition: “crazy Puritans”, Servetus’ execution in Calvin’s Geneva and so on. Similar themes abound in the writings of Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens. The citation of historical cases is not in itself an argument so it is hard to discern the exact objection here. It appears to consist of two claims. Firstly, that some people who believe in God have committed atrocities against other people. Secondly, that if people who hold a belief commit atrocities then that belief is either false or should be avoided by liberal-minded people.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Historians Ronald Numbers and David Lindberg point to recent research having discredited the portrayal of the early Middle Ages as “the Dark Ages” brought about by Christianity. Similarly, research into Inquisition archives reveal that while such tribunals did exist, many popular beliefs are based on embellishment, exaggeration and propaganda rather than a sober assessment of facts. The picture of the Inquisition that emerges from these studies is significantly more benign than has popularly been thought. Similarly, historian Leland Ryken’s studies on the Puritans have questioned many of the popular stereotypes Peron referred to.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Take Peron’s allusion to the execution of Servetus. In his study on the life of Calvin, Oxford Theologian Alister McGrath argues <span id="more-9182"></span>that Calvin’s role in Servetus’ execution has been greatly exaggerated and contends that such heresy prosecutions were not typical in Geneva contrary to the image popularly peddled by rationalists. McGrath has also relentlessly exposed several cases of outright distortion and myth perpetuated about the so-called “dictator” of Geneva. This is not to say that atrocities did not occur, nor that such atrocities should be justified, but it is important to be accurate and fair. The evidence suggests that much of what people believe today about religious history is based on discredited 19<sup>th</sup> century rationalist propaganda stereotypes and consequent cultural prejudice.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Perhaps more interesting is the second claim. While this claim is seldom made explicit, something like it is necessary if the existence of atrocities entails that belief in God is false or that religious belief and practice should be avoided.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Philosopher Glenn Peoples provides several counter examples to this claim. The belief that the atom could be split is one that has been used to kill thousands of people yet that belief is true and it is an important scientific discovery. The belief that theft is wrong has, in the past, led to the lynching of thieves. Does this show that theft is not really wrong and we should not oppose it?</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Other examples illustrate the absurdity of this claim. The “reign of terror” during the French Revolution was justified by appeals to liberty, equality, fraternity and the rights of humankind; one victim of the guillotine famously remarked, “Oh, Liberty, what crimes are committed in your name”. Millions have been slaughtered by appeals to the greater good of society or the liberation of the oppressed classes and it is well known that people have defended wars on the basis of justice and social peace. Should we therefore avoid liberty, equality, opposing oppression, seeking justice and social peace?</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">A third problem with the “argument from atrocities” is that an analogous argument can be used against atheism and secular philosophies. Millions have lost their lives in wars fought in the name of secular ideologies such as Communism &#8212; wars far more brutal and total than those that occurred during the Middle Ages. Millions have been killed in socialist states in show-trials every bit as hysterical and rigged as any witch trials were. And, as some medievalists have noted, with irony, the Committee for Public Safety in Enlightenment France was, in numerous respects, much worse than the Inquisition. If the fact that Christians engaged in historical atrocities entails belief in God is false or that religious belief is to be avoided then parity of reasoning entails atheism is false and that secular belief systems should be avoided.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">At this point the sceptic will start to make qualifications. One rejoinder is that whilst atheists like Pol Pot, Mao and Stalin committed atrocities, these were not done in the name of atheism or due to their atheist beliefs. Religious atrocities, however, were committed <em>because</em> of religious beliefs.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">However, such rejoinders fail. As Peoples explained, Stalin and Pol Pot persecuted religious groups precisely because they were atheists and saw religion as socially pernicious &#8212; the very thing people who press the historical atrocities argument are trying to contend. Richard Wurmbrand, a victim of communist persecution in Romania, stated that “communist torturers often said there is no God, no hereafter, no life after death, we can do what we wish.” The fact that atheism was not the motivation for these actions seems to be news to those who actually witnessed them.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">So, many atrocities were committed on the basis of atheism. The purported rejoinder also fails due to the fact that many atrocities cited by religious critics were not committed for religious reasons but for secular ones. Christopher Eberle and Terence Cuneo noted in the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy that the religious wars of the 17th Century were caused not by the appeal to religious reasons, <em>per se</em>, but rather by the violation of religious freedom. They noted further that even in the 17th Century religious persecution was typically justified on secular grounds,</p>
<blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">“When such rights have been violated, the justifications offered, even by religious believers, appeal to alleged requirements for social order, such as the need for uniformity of belief on basic normative issues. One theological apologist for religious repression, for example, writes this: ‘The king punishes heretics as enemies, as extremely wicked rebels, who endanger the peace of the kingdom, which cannot be maintained without the unity of the faith. That is why they are burnt in Spain.”</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Medievalist Régine Pernoud argued that heretics were burnt or tortured during the 12<sup>th</sup> Century due to the revival of Roman Law, which allowed torture to gain a confession and burning as punishment for treason. The torture and burning of heretics had as much to do with ancient Roman legal customs as it did with biblical exegesis. In fact, the Inquisition used torture more sparingly, passed death sentences more rarely and had more humane prisons than most secular courts of the same time. This suggests inquisitors actually moderated already accepted harsh Roman practices. Now, this does not justify such practices but it does question the thesis that religious reasons were the driving motivation for them or the thesis that they would not have occurred if a more secular context had prevailed. In a similar vein the Crusades were originally called to protect pilgrims from attack, to recover annexed territory and to protect the eastern Roman Empire from invasion &#8212; all secular reasons that could have been utilised to justify war quite independently of any religious rationale. Was World War II not fought to recover annexed territory, protect innocent people and protect Europe from invasion? How many millions were killed for that?</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">When these qualifications fail it is contended that not all atheists support these practices. This is true. It is also true that not all religious people support the practices cited by these sceptics. In fact, historically, some of the most important criticisms of religious persecution and defences of religious tolerance, such as those proposed by John Locke and Pierre Bayle, appealed to explicitly theological grounds.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Yale Philosophy Professor, Nicholas Wolterstorff, notes that “many of the social movements in the modern world that have moved societies in the direction of liberal democracy have been deeply and explicitly religious in their orientation.” Wolterstorff cites examples such as the abolitionist, civil rights and other resistance movements as examples.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">So the appeal to historical atrocities, on examination, seems often based on a fairly selective analysis of the evidence. The Bin Ladens and Hitlers of this world are clearly dangerous but so too are the Stalins, Pol Pots and secular groups like the Tamil Tigers who pioneered the practice of suicide bombing before Al-Qaeda came on the scene. People fight and kill for a number of reasons; sometimes these are religious, more often they are secular &#8211; sometimes both. When people care deeply about something, sometimes they will kill to protect it. Religion is not an exception.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Bin Laden is dead; however, as commentators incessantly tell us, the legacy of religious terror he represents will continue. What also will continue are the prejudices of some secular groups who use his example to stereotype and smear all religions as dangerous and fanatical. It is far easier to kill a terrorist than it is to kill irrational prejudice but at least one can expose it for the shallow line of thought that it is.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>I write a monthly column for </em><a href="http://www.investigatemagazine.com/newshop/enter.html">Investigate Magazine</a><em> entitled “Contra Mundum.” This blog post was published in the June 2011 issue and is reproduced here with permission. Contra Mundum is Latin for ‘against the world;’ the phrase is usually attributed to Athanasius who was exiled for defending Christian orthodoxy.</em></p>
<p>Letters to the editor should be sent to:<br />
editorial@investigatemagazine.DELETE.com</p>
<p><strong>RELATED POSTS:</strong><br />
<a title="Contra Mundum:  Stoning Adulterers" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/05/contra-mundum-stoning-adulterers.html"> Contra Mundum: Stoning Adulterers</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/12/contra-mundum-in-defence-of-santa.html"></a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/02/contra-mundum-is-god-a-21st-century-western-liberal.html"></a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/02/contra-mundum-%E2%80%9Ctill-death-do-us-part%E2%80%9D-christ%E2%80%99s-teachings-on-abuse-divorce-and-remarriage.html"></a><a title="Permanent Link to Contra Mundum: Why Does God Allow Suffering?" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/04/contra-mundum-why-does-god-allow-suffering.html">Contra Mundum: Why Does God Allow Suffering?</a><br />
<a title="Contra Mundum: “Till Death do us Part” Christ’s Teachings on Abuse, Divorce and Remarriage" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/02/contra-mundum-%e2%80%9ctill-death-do-us-part%e2%80%9d-christ%e2%80%99s-teachings-on-abuse-divorce-and-remarriage.html">Contra Mundum: “Till Death do us Part” Christ’s Teachings on Abuse, Divorce and Remarriage</a><br />
<a title="Contra Mundum: Is God a 21st Century Western Liberal?" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/02/contra-mundum-is-god-a-21st-century-western-liberal.html">Contra Mundum: Is God a 21st Century Western Liberal?</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/12/contra-mundum-in-defence-of-santa.html" target="_blank">Contra Mundum: In Defence of Santa</a><br />
<a title="Permanent Link to Contra Mundum: The Number of the Beast" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/12/contra-mundum-the-number-of-the-beast.html">Contra Mundum: The Number of the Beast<br />
</a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/11/contra-mundum-pluralism-and-being-right.html">Contra Mundum: Pluralism and Being Right</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/10/contra-mundum-abraham-and-isaac-and-the-killing-of-innocents.html">Contra Mundum: Abraham and Isaac and the Killing of Innocents</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/09/contra-mundum-selling-atheism.html">Contra Mundum: Selling Atheism</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/08/contra-mundum-did-god-command-genocide-in-the-old-testament.html">Contra Mundum: Did God Command Genocide in the Old Testament?</a><br />
<a title="Permanent Link to Contra Mundum: Fairies, Leprechauns, Golden Tea Cups &amp; Spaghetti Monsters" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/contra-mundum-fairies-leprechauns-golden-tea-cups-spaghetti-monsters.html">Contra Mundum: Fairies, Leprechauns, Golden Tea Cups &amp; Spaghetti Monsters</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/06/contra-mundum-secularism-and-public-life.html">Contra Mundum: Secularism and Public Life</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/05/contra-mundum-richard-dawkins-and-open-mindedness.html">Contra Mundum: Richard Dawkins and Open Mindedness</a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/04/contra-mundum-slavery-and-the-old-testament.html"><br />
Contra Mundum: Slavery and the Old Testament</a> <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/03/contra-mundum-secular-smoke-screens-and-plato%E2%80%99s-euthyphro-2.html"><br />
Contra Mundum: Secular Smoke Screens and Plato’s Euthyphro</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/09/contra-mundum-whats-wrong-with-imposing-your-beliefs-onto-others.html">Contra Mundum: What’s Wrong with Imposing your Beliefs onto Others?<br />
</a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/10/contra-mundum-god-proof-and-faith.html">Contra Mundum: God, Proof and Faith</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/11/contra-mundum-%E2%80%9Cbigoted-fundamentalist%E2%80%9D-as-orwellian-double-speak.html">Contra Mundum: “Bigoted Fundamentalist” as Orwellian Double-Speak</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/12/contra-mundum-the-flat-earth-myth.html">Contra Mundum: The Flat-Earth Myth</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/contra-mundum-confessions-of-an-anti-choice-fanatic.html">Contra Mundum: Confessions of an Anti-Choice Fanatic</a><br />
<a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/contra-mundum-the-judgmental-jesus.html">Contra Mundum: The Judgmental Jesus</a></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2011/06/contra-mundum-religion-and-violence.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>40</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Science and Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Aristotle]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dark Ages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Enlightenment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Founding Fathers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[James Valliant]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Libertarianism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Liberty]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mark Murphy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Nicholas Wolterstorff]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Regine Pernoud]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rodney Stark]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SOLO]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[W.E.H. Lecky]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=2821</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Recently Peter Cresswell published a guest post by James Valliant, which originally appeared on SOLO. In Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I, I addressed Valliant&#8217;s claims that science and freedom of religion were unanimously opposed by Christians and the success of science and freedom of religion in Europe was solely [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>Recently Peter Cresswell published <a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2010/02/guest-post-gimme-that-old-time-religion.html">a guest post by James Valliant</a>, which originally appeared on <a href="http://www.solopassion.com/node/7338">SOLO</a>. In <a title="Permanent Link to Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html">Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I</a>, I addressed Valliant&#8217;s claims that science and freedom of religion were unanimously opposed by Christians and the success of science and freedom of religion in Europe was solely due to the influence of pagan ideas which the church sought to suppress. Then in <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html">The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers</a>, I further documented how Enlightenment defences of freedom of religion were grounded in earlier theological writings. Here I will continue my critique of Valliant&#8217;s article.<br />
 </em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">3. Valliant contends that it is absurd to suggest that “the US declaration of independence is based on Judeo-Christian ideas.” His reasons, however, are once again based on ignorance of Christian intellectual history.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">First he ridicules the idea of Christian influence, “We are asked to believe that it took a mere 1,776 years of reading that darned Bible before any of those great and learned Christian scholars figured out its true political implications!” Valliant seems blissfully unaware that many ideas expressed in the declaration were expressed by Christian writers sometimes hundreds of years <em>prior</em> to 1776.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The claim that there is a creator and that this is self-evident, are ideas that go back centuries in Christian theology. Moreover, the contention that people are created equal is found in the book of Job and would not have been contested by many medieval or patristic theologians.  Mark Murphy has noted that the idea of ‘consent of the governed’ was also accepted in political thought of the Middle Ages.<a href="#_ftn1">[1]</a> In fact, a form of ‘consent of the governed’ was actually a key feature of feudalism; under this system the monarch was elected or chosen by the land owners and could be deposed by the land owners.<a href="#_ftn2">[2]</a> Nicholas Wolterstorff has documented that the notion of natural rights had its origins in medieval canon law and theological reflections of the middle ages.<a href="#_ftn3">[3]</a> Many of the ideas expressed in the declaration were defended centuries earlier by Calvinist tracts such as <em>Lex Rex</em> and <em>Vindicae Contra Tyrannos</em>. In fact, medieval theologians criticised absolute monarchy, debated the question of just revolutions and so on resulting in the birth of the Magna Carta.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">The declaration simply repeats <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/the-theology-of-the-declaration-of-independence.html">the argument for liberty</a>, put forward by John Locke in his <em>Two Treatise of Civil Government</em>. Locke’s argument occurred in the context of an exegetical debate with Robert Filmer about whether or not the bible supported absolute monarchy. Locke’s main argument was that because human beings are created by God, they have an inalienable right to life and liberty and so could not licitly sell themselves or give another person arbitrary or total power over them. In making this argument, Locke actually appropriated an ancient rabbinical argument against slavery which was alluded to by the Apostle Paul (1 Cor 7:23) and is implicit in the Torah (Lev 25: 42). Paul’s appropriation of this argument was the basis for the Christian abolition of slavery in the early Middle Ages. Valliant’s ignorance about what Christians did not support or write about prior to 1776 does not mean that these texts do not exist.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant continues with the claim that Paul told Christians “to just ‘<em>obey’ the governmental</em> ‘<em>authorities’</em> <em>placed over us</em>, because God has appointed them, by St. Paul himself, who likely wrote during the reign of the monster Nero.” This again is a caricature, <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/09/sunday-study-r-13-romans-revelations-and-the-state.html">as I have pointed out elsewhere</a>, the context (which Valliant ignores) qualifies Paul’s command. Moreover, the passage Valliant cites was written during the early part of Nero’s reign when Nero was strongly influenced by Seneca the Younger and Barrus and his rule was widely considered to be competent and relatively enlightened. When Nero later degenerated into a monster the scripture, rather scathingly, describes <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/sunday-study-666-the-number-of-the-beast.html">Nero as a satanic beast</a> whom Christians are required to <em>resist</em> – not obey!</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant also seems blithely unaware of the fact that Paul wrote as a prisoner of Rome and was himself executed by Nero for refusing to pay homage to Nero (as were many other Christians). His picture then of Paul as a proponent of advocating unqualified obedience to Nero is simply inaccurate.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">4. Valliant similarly quotes Paul’s admonition to slaves to obey their masters in contrast to the US Framers who “thought slavery was evil, too, and it was this belief that provided the basis (e.g., see the Gettysburg Address) for later abolishing it” as evidence that abolitionist ideas originate from ancient Greek/Aristotelian thought and not Christian theology. Apart from the fact that Jefferson was himself a slave owner, Valliant’s understanding is extremely selective.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">First, opposition to slavery in various forms has a long history in Christian thought and practice. It predates the American Founding by hundreds, maybe, thousands of years. Early Christians advocated emancipating slaves, a practice exhorted by several leading theologians and early church councils.  W.E.H. Lecky contends that early Christian saints such as Melania, Ovidius, Chromatius, and Hermes, between them liberated almost 20,000 slaves.<a href="#_ftn4">[4]</a> Later, in 315, Constantine made it a capital offence to steal a child and bring it up as a slave. Justinian, in the 6<sup>th</sup> century, abolished earlier roman laws prohibiting the freeing of slaves. Similarly St Bathilde, a runaway slave who became the wife of King Clovis II in the 9<sup>th</sup> century, campaigned against the slave trade as did other notables, St Patrick in the 5<sup>th</sup> century, St Anskar in the 9<sup>th</sup> century and St Wulfstan, St Anselm in the 11<sup>th</sup> century. Rodney Stark notes that Christian opposition to slavery in the lead to its effective abolition within in Europe during the Middle Ages. Stark goes on to document that Pope Eugene IV (1431-1447), Pope Pius II (1458-1464), Pope Sixtus IV (1471-1484), Pope Paul III (1534-1549), Pope Urban VIII (1623-1644) issued papal bulls against slavery. In addition, the Roman Inquisition condemned slavery on 20 March 1686.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">All of the above occurred hundreds of years <em>prior </em>to the US Founding Fathers.<a href="#_ftn5">[5]</a> In fact, evangelical Christians, such as William Wilberforce, had brought about the abolition of slavery peacefully in the British several decades before the US fought a civil war over it. Moreover, Stark’s analysis shows that the earliest abolitionist tracts within the US were whttp://www.mandm.org.nz/wp-admin/post-new.phpritten by Puritans &#8211; actually by one of the judges at the Salem witch trials. The abolitionist movements in the US were overwhelmingly <em>religious in orientation</em>.<a href="#_ftn6">[6]</a> The suggestion then that opposition to slavery was without Christian precedent and was a novel idea proposed by the revival of pre-Christian ideas in the Enlightenment is implausible. The issue of slavery is a particularly bad example to substantiate Valliant’s thesis given that in the pre-Christian pagan world slavery was widely practiced and accepted. In fact Aristotle, Valliant’s pre-Christian Greek hero, famously <em>defended</em> slavery (in <em>three</em> chapters no less) contending the enslavement of other races was natural.<a href="#_ftn7">[7]</a></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant’s reading of scripture is also questionable. While it is true that Paul exhorted slaves to obey their masters, this by itself does not entail support for slavery anymore than my paying my taxes constitutes my agreement with taxation laws. Moreover, Valliant ignores the numerous other things both the scriptures and Paul stated about slavery, which contradict and condemn <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/06/sunday-study-slavery-john-locke-and-the-bible.html">the practice of slavery that existed in America</a>. In fact, the enlightenment philosopher who most influenced the US, John Locke, appealed to <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/06/sunday-study-slavery-john-locke-and-the-bible.html">these very texts</a> both explicitly and implicitly, to condemn slavery. Once again, Valliant ignores crucial facts of Christian intellectual history to come to his stereotypical conclusions.</p>
<hr style="text-align: justify;" size="1" />
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><a href="#_ftnref1">[1]</a> Mark Murphy &#8220;Natural Law, Consent, and Political Obligation&#8221; <em>Social Philosophy &amp; Policy</em> 18 (2001) 70-92.<a href="#_ftnref2"><br />
 [2]</a> Regine Pernoud,  <em>Those Terrible Middle Ages : Debunking the Myths</em> (San Francisco: Ignatius Press,  2000) 128-129.<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref3">[3]</a> Nicolas Wolterstorff  <em>Justice Rights and Wrongs</em> (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2008).<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref4">[4]</a> W.E.H. Lecky <em>History of European Morals: From Augustus to Charlemagne</em> (New York: D. Appleton, 1921) 2:69.<a href="#_ftnref5"><br />
 [5]</a> Rodney Stark <em>For the Glory of God: How Monotheism led to Reformations, Science, Witch-hunts and the end of Slavery</em> (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2003).<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref6">[6]</a> Ibid.<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref7">[7]</a> Aristotle <em>The Politics</em> Bk I iii, iv, v.</span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;">RELATED POSTS:<br />
 </span></span></strong><a title="Permanent Link to Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html">Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html">The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to The Theology of the Declaration of Independence" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/07/the-theology-of-the-declaration-of-independence.html">The Theology of the Declaration of Independence</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html"></a><a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html">The “Dark Ages” and Other Propaganda</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Guest Post: Dan Brown’s History of Science" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/10/guest-post-dan-brown%e2%80%99s-history-of-science.html">Guest Post: James Hannam on Dan Brown’s History of Science</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Sunday Study: Slavery, John Locke and the Bible" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/06/sunday-study-slavery-john-locke-and-the-bible.html">Slavery, John Locke and the Bible</a><br />
<a title="Permanent Link to Sunday Study: 666 The Number of the Beast" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/08/sunday-study-666-the-number-of-the-beast.html">666 The Number of the Beast</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Sunday Study R 13: Romans, Revelations and the Role of the State" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/09/sunday-study-r-13-romans-revelations-and-the-state.html">R 13: Romans, Revelations and the Role of the State</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part I</title>
		<link>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant</link>
		<comments>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Bloggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Christian History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Science and Religion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dark Ages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[David Lindberg]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Enlightenment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Founding Fathers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[James Hannam]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[James Valliant]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Libertarianism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Liberty]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Peter Cresswell]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Regine Pernoud]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SOLO]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mandm.org.nz/?p=2784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Recently Peter Cresswell published a guest post by James Valliant, which originally appeared on SOLO. The following series is a critique of this piece. Valliant’s basic thesis is that, Both science and freedom came about among European Christians despite the best efforts of pious Christians to prevent their development, and only on a foundation of [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: justify;"><em>Recently Peter Cresswell published <a href="http://pc.blogspot.com/2010/02/guest-post-gimme-that-old-time-religion.html">a guest post by James Valliant</a>, which originally appeared on <a href="http://www.solopassion.com/node/7338">SOLO</a>. The following series is a critique of this piece.</em></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant’s basic thesis is that,</p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Both science and freedom came about among European Christians <em>despite</em> the best efforts of pious Christians to prevent their development, and only on a foundation of pagan, pre-Christian ideas, and with conservative Christians fighting each and every step of the way.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Like other Randian’s he <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html">erroneously thinks of Aristotle’s philosophy as a paradigm of the pagan ideas</a> in question. Valliant’s post contains numerous errors. His <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/sunday-study-joshua-and-the-genocide-of-the-canaanites-part-i.html">uncritical acceptance of literal</a> <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/sunday-study-joshua-and-the-genocide-of-the-canaanites-part-ii.html">reading of Genocide passages</a>, his claim that the Bible teaches sex is bad, his assertion that it teaches <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html">people will be tortured forever for not believing in Christ</a> and numerous other things means there are far to many errors for me to address in a short post and this one is long enough as it is! Here I will focus on those errors most relevant to his main thesis. [I have inserted hyperlinks on the less relevant errors where I have previously blogged on the issue - also see the related posts at the end.]</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">1. Valliant appears to accept the now discredited <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis">conflict thesis</a>. He states that the Church “imprisoned scientists” for challenging its authority and that that “Western science only got going again following the rediscovery of pre-Christian Greek ideas, starting with Aristotle&#8217;s.” Valliant cites Copernicus as an example, claiming that he “got his ideas about the earth and the sun from an ancient, pagan source, one that he suppressed upon publication.” This is all questionable at best, as <a href="http://www.thenile.co.nz/books/James-Hannam/Gods-Philosophers/9781848310704/"></a><a href="http://bedejournal.blogspot.com/">James Hannam’s</a> recent study shows, “During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church actively supported a great deal of science.” Hannam goes on to document that, contrary to popular belief, the Church, “never supported the idea that the earth was flat, never banned human dissection, never banned zero and certainly never burnt anyone at the stake for scientific ideas.” The one exception to this, he notes, is the case of Galileo in the 17<sup>th</sup> century, who was placed under house arrest for teaching Copernican cosmology as true (as opposed to a hypothesis).<a href="#_ftn1">[1]</a> The Catholic Church’s opposition to Copernicus, of course, is the sole case Valliant alludes to but a single case does not substantiate a trend.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant’s allusion to the views of Copernicus is similarly questionable. Copernicus’ heliocentric cosmology constituted a<em> rejection</em> of the standard Aristotelian cosmology accepted by the ancient Greeks. Stillman Drake notes that Galileo’s strongest opponents were supporters of Aristotle and it was more his calling into question Aristotle and the pressure by Aristotelians to silence him, that lead to his condemnation from the church than merely interpreting a psalm figuratively.<a href="#_ftn2">[2]</a> Nor is it correct to suggest that Copernicus got his “ideas about the earth” from suppressed Greek scientists. In fact, the thesis that the earth moves had already been suggested by 14th century theologians   Jean Buridan and Nicole d&#8217;Oresme and had been openly discussed in medieval universities for centuries <em>prior </em>to Copernicus. Edward Grant notes the positions of Buridan and d&#8217;Oresme were based in part on Theological <em>condemnations</em> of Aristotelian Philosophy that had occurred in the 13 century.<a href="#_ftn3">[3]</a> The Copernican position then was already being debated openly in theological circles <em>before </em>Copernicus and was <em>a repudiation </em>of Greek cosmology motivated, in part, by theological concerns about God’s sovereignty.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">2. Valliant makes the historical claim that “The burning of thousands and thousands at the stake for no reason <em>other than</em> their heretical faith, the torturing of thousands and thousands more in order to get them to confess to any deviation from the Bible … is all a matter of historical record.” He asks,</p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">If Christians, in the name of their faith, did horrible things in the more remote past, had they simply <em>misunderstood</em> the Bible that they were poring over in such detail and with such devotion? Did they <em>finally</em> get clear on the meaning of their true doctrine only after the better part of two millennia?. No, it was the horrible institution of <em>Christian</em> persecution, century after century, which inspired sensitive minds to first consider the idea of freedom of conscience, and, again, only with a good deal of philosophical help from those ancient, pagan sources, from Aristotle to Cicero.” [<em>Emphasis added</em>]</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant appears to think that religious persecution as existed in the Inquisition was due to Christian theology and that the notion of freedom of conscience was the result of pagan ideas.  The facts, however, are not so simple. Valliant’s argument contains several false assumptions.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">First, Valliant is mistaken that Christians for the better part of two millennia both engaged in and supported the activities he refers too. In fact, for the first four hundred years of Christian history, the Church fathers supported and defended a right to freedom of conscience; it was only in the 5th century, due to the influence of Augustine, that suppression of heresy was supported. Even in this instance there was not unanimity. Many theologians such as Ambrose and Pope Siricius protested heresy executions in the late Roman Empire.  Forced baptisms did occur under Charlemagne in the 8<sup>th</sup> century but were criticised by leading theologians of the time such as Alcurin.  From Charlemagne till the 12th century, some 400 years, there were no inquisitions.<a href="#_ftn4">[4]</a> The Inquisition arose in Western Europe in the 12th century in response to a particular political crisis.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Interestingly both Canon Law and Medieval Theology developed a notion of freedom of conscience in the Middle Ages, drawing from earlier patristic sources and exegesis of Paul’s comments on freedom of conscience in Romans 14.<a href="#_ftn5">[5]</a> In fact, the defences of religious tolerance, proposed by enlightenment thinkers such as John Locke, Pierre Bayle and James Madison are often simply repetitions of the arguments of early Christian theologians such as Lactantius and Tertullian, which had been known to Christian theologians for over a thousand years.  These facts also show that is mistaken to suggest defences of freedom of conscience were only developed <em>after</em> hundreds of years of Christian persecution.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Second, Valliant’s attempt to equate religious tolerance with pagan antiquity is equally dubious. The pre-Christian Athenian democracy Valliant champions executed Socrates for heresy, around 400 years before Christ. Plato and Aristotle also experienced periods of exile from Athens &#8211; Aristotle fled precisely to avoid sharing Socrates fate. Greek Philosophers, including Plato, defended censorship of religious books and execution of those who denied the existence of the gods. For 300 years prior to the Christianisation of Europe the roman state persecuted and executed Christian believers. Eusebius records that thousands of men, women and children &#8211; sometimes whole towns &#8211; were martyred by Rome for their beliefs.<a href="#_ftn6">[6]</a> David Lindberg sums the evidence up,</p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Intolerance is and was (and is) a widely cultivated trait, shared about equally by pagans and Christians. Moreover, each party was capable of employing coercive measures when it gained the political power to do so; Christians, in fact appear to have done so less often than Pagans.<a href="#_ftn7">[7]</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Valliant’s contention that “freedom” was based on “pre-Christian” Aristotelian ideas “with conservative Christians fighting each and every step of the way” also ignores the obvious fact that the Inquisition came into Europe around <em>the same time</em> as the rise of Aristotelianism and was in fact defended and carried out by the Dominican order &#8211; the <em>very same order</em> that promoted and defended Aristotle in European universities. The facts, therefore, do not fit the generalised picture Valliant paints.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Third, Valliant’s comments appear to assume that the torture and execution of heretics was justified solely by an appeal to the Bible. However, nowhere does the Bible mention executing or torturing heretics nor was it typically taken to teach this. Christopher Eberle and Terence Cuneo note that suppression of heresy was frequently punished, not on religious grounds <em>per se,</em> but on broader secular grounds,</p>
<blockquote><p style="text-align: justify;">Religious believers have employed coercive power to violate the right to religious freedom, they themselves rarely have done so in a way that violates the [Doctrine of Religious Restraint] … when such rights have been violated, the justifications offered, even by religious believers, appeal to alleged requirements for social order, such as the need for uniformity of belief on basic normative issues. One theological apologist for religious repression, for example, writes this: ‘The king punishes heretics as enemies, as extremely wicked rebels, who endanger the peace of the kingdom, which cannot be maintained without the unity of the faith. That is why they are burnt in Spain’. <a href="#_ftn8">[8]</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: justify;">Régine Pernoud points out that reason heretics were burnt or tortured is because the 12th century saw the revival of <em>Roman law</em> which allowed torture to gain a confession and punish treason with burning.<a href="#_ftn9">[9]</a> Hence contrary to Valliant, the torture and burning of heretics had as much to do with ancient pagan roman legal customs as it did with biblical exegesis.  In fact, the evidence suggests that unlike secular courts, the Inquisition used torture sparingly, more moderately and rarely executed those who came before it, suggesting that it in fact moderated and softened the harshness of roman practice.<a href="#_ftn10">[10]</a></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">In my next post in this series, <a title="Permanent Link to Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html">Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II</a>, I address Valliant&#8217;s claims that the writers of the Declaration of Independence were not influenced by Christianity and his claims around freedom and slavery.</p>
<p style="text-align: justify;">In the meantime see this update: <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html">The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers</a></p>
<hr style="text-align: justify;" size="1" />
<p style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"><a href="#_ftnref1">[1]</a> James Hannam <em>God’s Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science </em>(London: Icon books, 2009) 2-3.<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref2">[2]</a> Stillman Drake <em>Galileo</em> (Oxford: Oxford  University Press, 1996).<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref3">[3]</a> Edward Grant “Science and Theology in the Middle Ages” in David C Linberg and Ronald L Numbers eds <em>God and Nature: Historical Essays on the Encounter between Religion and Science</em> (Berkley: University of California Press, 1986) 49-75.<a href="#_ftnref4"><br />
 [4]</a> Regine Pernoud <em>Those Terrible Middle Ages: Debunking the Myths</em> (San Francisco: Ignatius Press,  2000) 120.<a href="#_ftnref5"><br />
 [5]</a> See Joseph Lecler <em>Toleration and the Reformation</em> trans. by TL Weslow (New York: Association Press, 1960).<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref6">[6]</a> Eusebius <em>Ecclesiastical History.<br />
 </em><a href="#_ftnref7">[7]</a> David Lindberg “Science and the Early Church” in David C Linberg and Ronald L Numbers eds <em>God and Nature: Historical Essays on the Encounter between Religion and Science</em> (Berkley: University of California Press, 1986) 22.<a href="#_ftnref8"><br />
 [8]</a> Christopher Eberle and Terence Cuneo “<a href="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-politics/">Religion and Political Theory</a>” (2008) Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.<a href="#_ftnref9"><br />
 [9]</a> Pernoud, above n 4, 128-129.<br />
 <a href="#_ftnref10">[10]</a> See, for example, Edward Peters <em>Inquisition</em> (London: Collier Macmillan, 1981); also Henry Kamen <em>The Spanish Inquisition: A Revisionist History </em>(New Haven Conn: Yale University Press, 1998).</span></p>
<p style="text-align: justify;"><strong><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;">RELATED POSTS:</span></span></strong><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant-part-ii.html">Freedom, Science and Christianity: A Response to James Valliant Part II<br />
</a> <a title="Permanent Link to The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/revisionist-history-freedom-science-and-christianity.html">The Theological Foundations of the Enlightenment Philosophers</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/04/the-dark-ages-and-other-propaganda.html">The “Dark Ages” and Other Propaganda</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/sunday-study-joshua-and-the-genocide-of-the-canaanites-part-i.html">Sunday Study: Joshua and the Genocide of the Canaanites Part I</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/01/sunday-study-joshua-and-the-genocide-of-the-canaanites-part-ii.html">Sunday Study: Joshua and the Genocide of the Canaanites Part II</a><br />
 <a href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2008/06/william-lane-craig-raymond-bradley-and-the-problem-of-hell-part-two.html">William Lane Craig, Raymond Bradley and the Problem of Hell. Part Two</a><br />
 <a title="Permanent Link to Guest Post: Dan Brown’s History of Science" rel="bookmark" href="http://www.mandm.org.nz/2009/10/guest-post-dan-brown%e2%80%99s-history-of-science.html">Guest Post: James Hannam on Dan Brown’s History of Science</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/02/freedom-science-and-christianity-a-response-to-james-valliant.html/feed</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>14</slash:comments>
		</item>
	</channel>
</rss>

